Home » StarWars Forums » Beyond The Movies » The Expanded Universe


Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



Permlink Replies: 2,982 - Pages: 150 [ Previous | 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 150 | Next ] - Last Post: Apr 25, 2011 1:41 PM Last Post By: Leland Y Chee
darthmilo77


Posts: 1,814
Registered: 12/12/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 21, 2011 10:10 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
DarthMRN wrote:
a number of excellent posts

I've had a similar feeling about how it used to seem that contradictions stemming from the movies were somewhat temporary, and didn't really represent the long-term strategy for Lucasfilm, but TCW really showed that they had no intent of stopping.

Incidentally, do you have the link (in old-to-new post thread format) to that obscure post that gives you hope?
DarthMRN


Posts: 2,355
Registered: 11/14/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 21, 2011 8:30 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Well, personal canons are one thing. The actual canon is another entirely. The only problem with a personal canon is that you can't really approach a discussion about a given topic, say Mandalorians, and ignore TCW and the latest canon.

And the problem with actual canon is that it cannot be expected to be valid over time, merely valid until a retcon forces it to change. And in some cases, like TCW, even the new actual canon is a hollow one until a retcon of what came before is made to clear everything up.

That leaves actual canon either hollow because it is unsupported, or unreliable because it can be changed at the wave of a wand. At worst, both at once.

That isn't much to hold a discussion on either, if you ask me.
DarthMRN


Posts: 2,355
Registered: 11/14/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 21, 2011 8:13 AM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
I wonder if it isn't more useful to regard Star Wars continuity as a history that is being gradually discovered than as a story that is being told by someone OOU?

Sure it is. Only this is anathema to the concept of continuity in the meaning "truth". And without that concept, there isn't really a point in making any sort of rationalization to begin with. Then we could as well read EU as SW-inspired fanfic of a little higher quality. Cheap knock-offs rather than an expanded look at the cinema universe it is presented as.
DarthMRN


Posts: 2,355
Registered: 11/14/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 21, 2011 8:02 AM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
I only put this position forward because it seems with ever 3 or 4 TCW episodes you've got continuity buffs declaring that the sky is falling on the EU and there's a canon implosion imminent, when in fact all that's required is the usual retconning that's been going on since forever

Wanna know where the implosion lies? In the perception. Even if retcons have been around forever, they were never caused by errors originating with GL, not at such a machine gun pace as with TCW.

With a modern EU discrepancy, it could be chalked up to the human error, the oversight, and thus of a negligible scope, because ideally they aren't to happen. With GL and the PT, it was livable because of the scarcity of them. Once things were salvaged, we were back on solid ground, and could pick up where we left off. But with TCW, it is just one mortar hit after the other, for everyone to see. And with the sitcom and Live-Action after it, we have no reason it think it will ever end.

Maybe it will end once GL draws his last breath, but I fear by that time the damage has either become so severe, or the cleanup so godlike, that the cat has left the bag: "If GL can do it, so can we. If Licensing's efforts can clean up THAT, surely they can clean up this. Lets go wild and make money, people!". Scary mentality to be on the receiving end of, no?

The perception of continuity as sacrosanct, both among fans and creators, will be lost, if it isn't already. Action follows thought. Therein lies the implosion.


I will as a continuity buff tell you how TCW has changed my perceptions:

Pre-TCW continuity was sacrosanct, with the errors exceptions or GL's arrogance that was thankfully limited to a few films of limited content. Part of this perception was my own ignorance. I wasn't aware of all the subtle bits of info out there that clearly stated just how little continuity mattered to the VIPs. That ignorance (read: perception) helped me live by and perpetuate the notion that continuity was sacrosanct.

Post-TCW continuity is a gift, by contrast. The errors are par for the course of creating multi-medium stories at the rate the LucasMachine does. I've learned that even EU errors are accepted unless they can be easily fixed in a jiffy, made a note of for a later retcon, and then shipped out in the guise of C-canon. What I learned from that was the perception that C-canon didn't mean "true to what came before", it meant "somewhat true to what came before, with a complete fix on the way sometime in the far future". It was compounded by TCW's T-canon meaning "not particularly true to what came before, by order of the allmighty head honcho himself". I learned that continuity was a gift to be grateful for, not something I could expect. That continuity or canon didn't mean "truth" after all, just "a little more truth than the fanfic I read online yesterday for free".


So when I talk about perception, I talk about what it does to fans and creators to watch GL himself trample the continuity we assumed existed, and this on primetime TV with wider exposure than any EU has. To me, it opened the floodgates to reexamine what I thought I knew of EU continuity, to open my eyes, only to figure out it was just as continuity-unfriendly as TCW was, only the scale was smaller.

It changed my perception, and I was for a while tempted to throw the EU away as glorified fan fiction. Only one thing stopped me. One thing: An obscure throwaway Leland post from years back, where he mentioned as part of a different point, that a tiny retcon existed somewhere solely to clear up an equally tiny error in an RPG supplement. To me that small fact held the promise that all errors, no matter how small, will sooner or later be caught and rectonned. It brought the promise of the holy land, that everything has the potential to be 100% coherent, and there are efforts made to make it so. Even if new errors are introduced along with the retcons, I believe I can at any point in time stop and say: Every error currently in existence will be cleared up eventually, no matter how small.

This, boys and girls, is the sole thread I hang onto! And for any VIP reading this, you can't expect such leniency from all fans...

IllogicalRogue2


Posts: 11,443
Registered: 02/04/03
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 20, 2011 11:32 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Thanks Mr. Chee! I have accepted TCW for it's G-level status. Seeing T-level in the "tracking" or bookkeeping light it suddenly makes sense- (the obvious sense others were asking what I couldn't see :^0 )

I kept figuring that its status would be G-level by default, and seeing it as a 'new level" kept throwing me off. I'd thought it was pretty cool thing indeed to be able to say TCW was EU, alas, I was wrong. (Hey it happens more then people seem to think! :^0 ) But seeing T-level and the Holocron's levels as a tracking device makes more sense.

I go on and on about the need for an Essential Guide to Canon & Continuity, it would come in handy for some of us readers I'm sure. :^0

Thanks Again!
Leland Y Chee


Posts: 1,450
Registered: 05/05/00
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 7:45 PM   in response to: IllogicalRogue2 in response to: IllogicalRogue2
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
The primary reason for the creation of T canon is for Licensing to track The Clone Wars and the films as separate properties. We need to be able to search for entries that are only from the films or only from The Clone Wars.
IllogicalRogue2


Posts: 11,443
Registered: 02/04/03
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 3:31 PM   in response to: IllogicalRogue2 in response to: IllogicalRogue2
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
OK I'm dying to know the answer to this one:

Why did they create a new canon level for TCW, (*T-level*) yet it's always being considered G-level in every regard.

I mean we fans look at this in both lights-

some of us see TCW being an EU element (aside from the parts specifically given by George or where his creation which are pure G-level)

others see it as "NOT EU", like its being classified EU at all makes it less SW by association :^0

There is no question in both camps that TCW trumps all in the cases of continuity issues. (well maybe the occasional fan may question but ya can't win them all)

But why isn't TCW given full G-level status?

Or at least officially accepted at the top rung of the EU, as it's treated anyway?

Thanks for your time with this. It's been a subject of debate for quite a while.

IllogicalRogue2


Posts: 11,443
Registered: 02/04/03
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 12:35 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Leland Y Chee wrote:
We still go by the assumption that Even Piell was, at least at one point, Jax Pavan's Master.

MOST AWESOME NEWS Mr. Chee!!! That was one of the minor things about the change that I disliked- that Jax wasn't trained by a High Council member! Can't wait for more on the retcon as it gets developed!

Still laughs that he feels the Twin theme has a small window of merit. :^0
Leland Y Chee


Posts: 1,450
Registered: 05/05/00
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 11:50 AM   in response to: IllogicalRogue2 in response to: IllogicalRogue2
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
We still go by the assumption that Even Piell was, at least at one point, Jax Pavan's Master.
Leland Y Chee


Posts: 1,450
Registered: 05/05/00
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 11:48 AM   in response to: Sompeetalay in response to: Sompeetalay
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
I actually don't know where this character appears in the film. The reference image I use is a behind-the-scenes picture for "Blue Harvest" where this Ewok is holding a movie slate.
IllogicalRogue2


Posts: 11,443
Registered: 02/04/03
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 11:41 AM   in response to: Sky74 in response to: Sky74
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Sky74 wrote:
Leland Y Chee wrote:
This certainly affects a chunk of the continuity of the first Coruscant Nights book in which Even Piell's death was originally depicted. The rest of the continuity of that series will remain intact, though this does leave open the question of who was Jax Pavan's Master.

Just curious... I got issue #18 ("April 2011") of the UK Star Wars: The Clone Wars Magazine today and it features an article on Even Piell on the last page, where it states: "Padawan: Jax Pavan". Is this to be regarded as an error or is Piell still Master of Jax somehow?


Now that's just funny $#!%! Really? The April 2011 one? Who dropped THAT Ball?! Kind of those things that make these issues so much more then they need to be....

Is begining to wonder at this rate what good any Essential guide will be come a few years after it's publishing. As is they are going to need an Essential Guide to understanding what part of your book still fits. :^0
Sompeetalay


Posts: 1,439
Registered: 12/16/99
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 2:41 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Dear Leland,

Could you please let us know where the Ewok Nho'Apakk can be seen in 'Return of the Jedi'? Is he the Ewok who keeps pounding on the foot of the AT-ST Walker, as suggested by a colleague on Wookieepedia? He does look him, but of course we don't know that for sure.

Thanks ! :)
darthmilo77


Posts: 1,814
Registered: 12/12/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 10:37 AM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
SlaveoftheForce wrote:

Well, personal canons are one thing. The actual canon is another entirely. The only problem with a personal canon is that you can't really approach a discussion about a given topic, say Mandalorians, and ignore TCW and the latest canon.


Which is fine with me. I didn't have many discussions about in-universe topics anyway. And I'm not really planning to buy any further EU works in the forseeable future.

And the Mando change really hasn't taken anything away from the canon, it's added to it and turned a one dimensional culture into something much richer. Previously, and with KT's Mando additions, the Mandalorians were warriors. Period.

That's disputable. I haven't read the RC books, but from what I understand, she expanded on the culture quite a lot, as compared to what they were in the Marvel comics or whatever. Maybe they're a race of Mary Sues, but only warriors doesn't sound right.

There was the True Mandos and the Death Watch but they weren't particularly different from each other... just feuding factions. Now you've got the addition of the New Mandos who are attempting to change their culture and their image in the galaxy away from the marauding warrior society that devastated the galaxy a couple times and guns for hire. Currently the only discrepancy that remains is the planet Mandalore itself I think. As far as their society though, it's definitely been added to.

I'd agree, except for the fact that Mandalore has apparently now been nuked to the ground for 700 years. They've never even fully addressed the problem. All we have to go on is the Essential Atlas, which just gives a description for Mandalore based on pre-TCW materials (as confirmed by the authors) and a few footnotes about the "New Mandalorians". The New Mandalorians aren't the problem, it's the new Mandalore.

I have a feeling that at the end of the day when the retcon for Even Piell's death and Coruscant Nights is issued, we are ultimately going to end up with an addition and not a subtraction because a new Jedi Master, a Lannik no less, will have to be created and added to the mix.

Sure, and that's why I don't have too much of a problem with the Even Piell situation. It's still sort of needless, but at least they're admitting that there's a conflict here. However, you can't really say that that would be purely additive, since something in the original story besides implications would have to change.

As for Ventress, nothing from her previously established backstory has been subtracted. She was taken from Dathomir as a small child or a baby(I can't recall correctly right now), and then we are shown flashbacks to Rattatak with her Jedi Master and the fights there. The only information we actually have about her parents came from that Rattataki shark-faced warlord. Asajj never speaks of them. Only her Jedi Master is confirmed by her. So all that was told about her in Republic is in tact with the addition of a Dathomiri Nightsister background and having been taken as a slave to Rattatak. It is consistent with the EU in that it takes nothing from her prior backstory but adds a pre-Rattatak element.

Again, not exactly. The version of events given by Osika Kirske was backed up by a lot of other materials, including (IIRC) Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, the TCW movie novelization, the TCW visual guide, the Complete Encyclopedia, and so on. So that's her parents subtracted. And, of course, her species was changed. My point is, though, they haven't yet admitted her warlord parents ever existed. Osika Kirske's story was pretty clearly not intended to be the result of an unreliable narrator, but even if LFL decided it was, they could at least say something about the parents instead of "hey look at this perfect retcon".

I'm not sure how Kit Fisto's voice is an issue, he had like one line didn't he? Same thing with Even Piell in the CW microseries. That's no more a continuity issue than Luke's voice in Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, ROTJ radio drama, and the Dark Empire audio drama not having been done by Mark Hamill and being noticably different. Or, heck, Kyle Katarn's voice being different from Dark Forces, to Jedi Knight, and then to Outcast/Academy. Kit never really had a voice that was well established, IMO, since I didn't even recall it enough for me to have Phil Lamar's work on TCW seem jarring compared to the microseries' one Kit line.

Right, and again, it's not really the change that's an issue. It's the fact that they claimed it was never anything different. It's like if they were making Jedi Outcast and chose a voice actor and talked about how it was Kyle Katarn's very first time speaking and they decided to choose a voice actor who was yadda yadda yadda. This, to me, indicates either a serious lack of research or a deliberate attempt to draw attention away from the fact that anything's being changed. The first scenario seems unlikely since they have Leland Chee hired to point these things out to them, so...

I find the idea that it's "Orwellian" in any way rather off putting, since we are talking about a company managing it's creative property and more importantly, it's a matter of the creator of said property going in the direction he wants to versus spin-off material that already knew this was a possibility and indeed a likelihood from the get-go. From the point of view of G-canon there never is a discrepancy to be had because G-canon is G-canon. It doesn't have to conform itself to C-canon. So if someone is speaking from the perspective of being involved in the creative process of a product that is of G-canon status(or T- in this case) for them there really isn't a contradiction with the EU.

From that perspective, maybe. The problem is they're extending that perspective to fan relations. And let's not forget, they're not just thinking of new ideas for movie characters that maybe clash with the EU. They're borrowing ideas from the EU and changing those. So it's not like they can play the "well in George's mind, Ryloth always rotated" card.

My point is this: if they just want to make a dramatic reinterpretation or whatever, that's fine. Maybe unfortunate for fans who liked the old version better, but we can probably all agree that it's within reasonable limits. If they want to take an idea, change it, and never acknowledge that the original idea existed, however, that's just disrespectful to both the fans and the people who created the original version. I'm not saying they can't do that, or that they have no right to do that, or that I'm surprised that they'd do that, just that it goes above my personal threshold of how much canon nonsense I can put up with before I decide it's not really worth it anymore.
Alan Skywalker V

Posts: 63
Registered: 01/27/08
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 8:59 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
I kind of feel the same way. I haven't watched much of TCW, but Anakin having a Padawan was a little hard to swallow. Lucas can do what he wants, but I'm, in all probability, going to stick with the old CW timeline.
Sky74


Posts: 15
Registered: 03/19/00
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 6:19 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Leland Y Chee wrote:
This certainly affects a chunk of the continuity of the first Coruscant Nights book in which Even Piell's death was originally depicted. The rest of the continuity of that series will remain intact, though this does leave open the question of who was Jax Pavan's Master.

Just curious... I got issue #18 ("April 2011") of the UK Star Wars: The Clone Wars Magazine today and it features an article on Even Piell on the last page, where it states: "Padawan: Jax Pavan". Is this to be regarded as an error or is Piell still Master of Jax somehow?
SlaveoftheForce


Posts: 3,477
Registered: 04/25/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 5:37 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply

Well, personal canons are one thing. The actual canon is another entirely. The only problem with a personal canon is that you can't really approach a discussion about a given topic, say Mandalorians, and ignore TCW and the latest canon. And the Mando change really hasn't taken anything away from the canon, it's added to it and turned a one dimensional culture into something much richer. Previously, and with KT's Mando additions, the Mandalorians were warriors. Period. There was the True Mandos and the Death Watch but they weren't particularly different from each other... just feuding factions. Now you've got the addition of the New Mandos who are attempting to change their culture and their image in the galaxy away from the marauding warrior society that devastated the galaxy a couple times and guns for hire. Currently the only discrepancy that remains is the planet Mandalore itself I think. As far as their society though, it's definitely been added to.

I have a feeling that at the end of the day when the retcon for Even Piell's death and Coruscant Nights is issued, we are ultimately going to end up with an addition and not a subtraction because a new Jedi Master, a Lannik no less, will have to be created and added to the mix. Ultimately that takes nothing from the EU anyway as almost any other Jedi Master can be substituted as Jax Pavan's master. Piell was hardly critical to the story as a character in and of himself. The same can be said about TCW, except that GL created him and wanted a venue to use him and explain his absence from the Jedi Council in ROTS.

As for Ventress, nothing from her previously established backstory has been subtracted. She was taken from Dathomir as a small child or a baby(I can't recall correctly right now), and then we are shown flashbacks to Rattatak with her Jedi Master and the fights there. The only information we actually have about her parents came from that Rattataki shark-faced warlord. Asajj never speaks of them. Only her Jedi Master is confirmed by her. So all that was told about her in Republic is in tact with the addition of a Dathomiri Nightsister background and having been taken as a slave to Rattatak. It is consistent with the EU in that it takes nothing from her prior backstory but adds a pre-Rattatak element.

I'm not sure how Kit Fisto's voice is an issue, he had like one line didn't he? Same thing with Even Piell in the CW microseries. That's no more a continuity issue than Luke's voice in Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, ROTJ radio drama, and the Dark Empire audio drama not having been done by Mark Hamill and being noticably different. Or, heck, Kyle Katarn's voice being different from Dark Forces, to Jedi Knight, and then to Outcast/Academy. Kit never really had a voice that was well established, IMO, since I didn't even recall it enough for me to have Phil Lamar's work on TCW seem jarring compared to the microseries' one Kit line.

I find the idea that it's "Orwellian" in any way rather off putting, since we are talking about a company managing it's creative property and more importantly, it's a matter of the creator of said property going in the direction he wants to versus spin-off material that already knew this was a possibility and indeed a likelihood from the get-go. From the point of view of G-canon there never is a discrepancy to be had because G-canon is G-canon. It doesn't have to conform itself to C-canon. So if someone is speaking from the perspective of being involved in the creative process of a product that is of G-canon status(or T- in this case) for them there really isn't a contradiction with the EU. The EU is the one contradicting G- and T-canon and has to make itself conform to the higher level of canon. That's been policy since the early 90s. TCW could work with established EU material, GL chooses not to and he's given permission to the people working on the Star Wars flagship to contradict the EU if they feel they have a better idea that works for the story I guess. In-house when they discuss continuity I think it's probably necessary for LFL to say just what they've been saying publicly... anything G-level or T-level has to be "this is the way it's really always been" rather than to give the EU a higher standing. Their in-house policy just isn't that the EU has any standing except with itself and that it has to conform to what's a step or two higher than it. At this point the entire EU is C-level. G- and T-level or more identical to each other and form a consistent continuity between film and TCW but at this point it's safe to say that TCW actually is not EU material. TCW is what happened between AOTC and ROTS for certain. The mircroseries may even be in doubt, I think it's still classified as C-level.

darthmilo77


Posts: 1,814
Registered: 12/12/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 16, 2011 8:41 AM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
I mean that the current approach is Orwellian. In the article about Asajj Ventress in the Insider that came out around when the Nightsisters trilogy aired, it said things like "this is consistent with the EU version of events" several times when it wasn't, and it never mentioned important details like her parents. I read some kind of interview with Dave Filoni where he talked about how they decided on a voice for Kit Fisto because he'd never had one before--except he did, in the original CW microseries. It's very hard for me to believe that these things would never have been brought to their attention in the creative process. Even when they're directly comparing TCW to the EU, they're acting like there never was any contradiction even in real life. 'I do not remember it,' said O'Brien.

And, as I'm sure you're aware, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't refrain from messing with things and make just as much profit from commercials and toy sales, if not more.

I personally think TCW is far from a "great" show by any means, even independently of continuity, and now they're taking away many of the aspects of Star Wars I do like. Even if I can't stop him from doing that in any way, I'd still rather not mentally change the things that came before that I do like for a show I really don't. Sure, GL can do whatever he wants. If that's the business decision he wants to make, so be it. If he wants to live in an echo chamber and keep on putting in EU "nods" that cause more aggravation than they solve, fine. If he's going to take a subtractive approach to continuity instead of an additive approach that at least ensured that the things that I do like would still be there regardless of how unwatchable I thought the rest of it was, that's his prerogative. I'm just going to continue using an older version of his sandbox, instead of pretending that the new version was always there, and I think I'll be happier that way.
SlaveoftheForce


Posts: 3,477
Registered: 04/25/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 16, 2011 7:00 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Fortunately it's just a product. It's not "Orwellian." I'd give you that if we were talking a real history with people just changing text books willy nilly to suit an agenda. That's not what it is. And it's not uncommon for authors to tweak their stuff. I know of at least one Chinese martial arts fiction writer that has done some revisions and additions to his novels two times over a 40 years period. Jin Yong. His Condor Trilogy has been changed 6 times total , they were originally written in the 50s and the last revision/addition was sometime around 2004-2005. The motivations for characters have been altered among other things.

Terry Brooks did some pretty major historical tweaks to his novels when he decided his The Word & The Void Trilogy was the contemporary backstory for his post-apocalyptic fantastical new world Shannara series. Tolkien made alterations to The Hobbit retroactively to tie it in better with The Lord of the Rings. Marvel and DC are doing these kinds of things all the time, of course.

The foggy window thing really isn't about GL's brain either. It's more about imagining the Star Wars galaxy as a real galaxy in our universe that is far, far away and GL and the EU are communicating this history as it is discovered. GL being the most authoritative voice on that history and his discoveries being undoubtably true, where as if there is a conflict between GL and an EU author it is the EU author's account that is less trustworthy. Not totally untrustworthy, but certain things may be mistakes. Like Coruscant Nights and Even Piell.

Viewing it that way is surely less harsh than the reality. It is a story being made up as it goes along, but GL can do whatever he pleases and that's just been common knowledge for some time. He doesn't, nor does he have to, feel his ideas should be hampered by previously established work by someone that wasn't him. That's a harsh reality, for sure. Yes, it could have been done differently but he didn't want to. And that's the end of it. And it's unlikely to change so long as he's actively involved. Regardless of what the EU fanbase says. The target audience for that show doesn't care, and they'll likely grow up and view the end result as better than what they hear came before because it'll be a choice between what came along before they were even born or what they grew up with. And TCW is doing pretty darn good with that audience, and with parents too. Every time I'm in a Target at a busy time there are 5-8 year old kids looking at SW toys. I was in there the other day and there was a woman and two of her teenage daughters expressing amazement that a young niece/cousin was a Star Wars fan. "But those are boys toys" they said.

I don't think GL is really trying to go out of his way to walk over the EU. In his mind the EU is a separate continuity and when he uses something from it he thinks he's doing a fanservice to the EU fans. It seems to work for some of us, a nod of recognition to aspects of it, and for others not because nod simultaneously invalidates some story point or world detail. I'm not sure he realizes that some fans are in an uproar about it. Probably because those fans are a pretty small voice in the larger tapestry of Star Wars fandom.
darthmilo77


Posts: 1,814
Registered: 12/12/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 15, 2011 10:47 PM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Eh, I guess. It just seems to me like it should be employed as a last resort, not as frequently as it's used now. I mean, when all discrepancies are equally easily explicable, having things work out seems a lot less rewarding. It's not really any better of a way to make things fit than saying "a wizard did it".

Consuming or not consuming the product still doesn't change the fact that the "historian" thing or Sansweet's foggy window analogy is basically how the canon levels work.

Not really. The canon levels aren't windows of varying clarity into the preserved brain of George Lucas in 1977. Even George Lucas changes his mind and generates new ideas. Canon is prescriptive, not descriptive.

I guess I just can't do it, pretend to myself on even a meta level that there's no other way things could have happened, that they couldn't have just spent five seconds fact-checking an EU planet and discovering that Bothawui wasn't a ringed gas giant or whatever, and that really it had rings all along, and the sources that created the planet were all just giant historical errors. They certainly put on that pretense in the Episode Guides and similar new material, but it honestly just seems too Orwellian to me.
SlaveoftheForce


Posts: 3,477
Registered: 04/25/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 15, 2011 8:37 PM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
    Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this post Reply
Intellectually dishonest? I don't think so. It's just helpful to view the canon that way. One can still say "that sucks, but this is just kind of how it is." It doesn't mean you can't vote with your dollar whether you like or dislike something. Consuming or not consuming the product still doesn't change the fact that the "historian" thing or Sansweet's foggy window analogy is basically how the canon levels work.

There are a lot of fans that are actually enjoying TCW as a show but find some of the continuity discrepancies quite jarring, it ticks them off etc and yet the still love the show. Taking that gradually unveiled history pov on it is helpful in maintaining their enjoyment. Or it would be, unfortunately there are plenty of fans that are worked up about it to such an extent that they curse GL's name and say some nasty stuff. The sky is falling for those fans, and in their minds now GL is the worst thing to happen to Star Wars in 20 years. That's just being, firstly, willfully ignorant of the LFL canon policy that has been publicized for 17 years or so. And it makes it impossible for them enjoy an otherwise great show(well, except for the cumbersome political episodes... seriously, give me laser blasts and lightsabers over Senates and Parliaments any day... if I want Senate action I'll turn on CSPAN).

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in all forums