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Last Post:
Jul 21, 2009 6:45 AM
Last Post By: Sith Jammies
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 21, 2009 6:45 AM
in response to: Grand Admiral S...
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This thread gave me the best laugh I've had in ages. 
I'm tempted to find this book so I can continue to laugh at it.
It's like I want to go up to the guy and say: Yes, I know it's not real. Neither is your belief that all things revolve around your opinion. :P
I dunno, maybe this guy needs more fiber in his diet, yeah? |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 20, 2009 10:59 PM
in response to: Grand Admiral S...
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Makes you wonder if they have hobbies of their own or if that quota's filled with their devil's advocateness.
Here's the funny thing: one would expect that Brin would attack Indiana Jones for its lionization of colonial powers and for its portrayal of indigenous cultures. Instead, he praised it for depicting academics as heroes.
Now, far be it from me to impugn Mr. Brin's motives. But if his stated reason for disliking Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings is their reactionary politics and elitism, how did Indiana Jones, which is far more overtly offensive, escape his scrutiny?
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 20, 2009 10:59 PM
in response to: disturbing
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The bad thing is, he's also gone on and on about LOTR.
It's not a "bad thing" to express one's opinion, and Brin does so articulately. That said, I find his understanding of Star Wars is so far removed from reality that it constitutes a pocket universe. Nevertheless, I can't in good conscience condemn a man because his tastes in sci-fi are different than mine.
How can Luke breathe the atmosphere again?
A layer of breathable air -- actually scientifically plausible.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 20, 2009 2:14 PM
in response to: IllogicalRogue2
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What lies? Did Palpatine ever lie? I don't remember him lying. He omitted a lot, but I don't recall him lying.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 20, 2009 12:25 PM
in response to: IllogicalRogue2
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How can Luke breathe the atmosphere again?
Could you imagine that scene differently? Luke comes in and his lungs are exploded and hanging from the outside of his mouth.
Edgar somethings wrong with me.......
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 20, 2009 12:23 PM
in response to: Qui-Gon Jay
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*
Oh, there's plenty of real governments today that demonstrate that.*
:^O so true!
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 20, 2009 12:20 PM
in response to: disturbing
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The bad thing is, he's also gone on and on about LOTR.
Some people just enjoy complaining about things. Makes you wonder if they have hobbies of their own or if that quota's filled with their devil's advocateness.
Plus it gives us an idea of how people could accept Palpatine's lies as truth
Oh, there's plenty of real governments today that demonstrate that.
How can Luke breathe the atmosphere again?
Yeah, you're right... 
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 20, 2009 11:25 AM
in response to: disturbing
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*
I also love how his criticisms of the Jedi sound just like Palpatine in the novelizations.
*
Plus it gives us an idea of how people could accept Palpatine's lies as truth :^O
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 20, 2009 11:08 AM
in response to: IllogicalRogue2
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The bad thing is, he's also gone on and on about LOTR.
I just love the idea that the Rebellion intended to install Luke and Leia as monarchs. Considering, you know, Vader offers Luke that in Empire and Palpy offers it again (after Palpy dies-LOL at that one)in +Jedi+? What does Luke do? IIRC, he falls onto a weather vane, almost falling perpetually until he would've been crushed by Bespin's gravity. (How can Luke breathe the atmosphere again?) And then on the Death Star he chooses a slow, painful death at Palpy's hands rather than becoming a monarch. Yeah, that's real fascist.
I also love how his criticisms of the Jedi sound just like Palpatine in the novelizations.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 19, 2009 11:28 PM
in response to: disturbing
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*
I just find it amazing that my five-year-old cousin, whose first experience with the franchise involved Ahsoka Scrappy Tano, understands Star Wars better than David Brin.
*
Nice! :^O
And yet he made bank on the book- man I should write one and spout of a bunch of POV :^O
Classic! |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 19, 2009 11:19 PM
in response to: disturbing
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continued
* Star Wars tells us to judge by looks. (Um, the Empire's all-human?)
*Elites are the only heroes in Star Wars. (Um, there's this guy, Han Solo, you may have heard of him? The dude's a third-rate drug runner before joining the Rebels.)
*Lucas favors a dictatorship. (True: The catch is it's a benign despot, which doesn't exist.)
*Darth Vader "murders billions at the press of a button". (When did this happen? I remember Tarkin doing so. Not Vader.)
*Everyone forgives Darth Vader. (Notice that Luke's the only one mourning his father.)
*Yoda saying anger is bad. Um, "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."
I just find it amazing that my five-year-old cousin, whose first experience with the franchise involved Ahsoka Scrappy Tano, understands Star Wars better than David Brin. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 19, 2009 11:18 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Well, Brin basically makes the thrust of his argument in a Salon article. But I love how he makes huge honking errors. His assertions, when he wrote the article right after TPM came out, include:
*Good and evil are easily defined. Let's ignore all the subtlety of the interaction betwen Palpatine and Padmé and later Luke.
*The Jedi rule the galaxy as of TPM. Did he miss that scene in the Senate?
*True Art Sticks It To The Man. I think defining "art" by its place in the political spectrum is itself a fascist act.
*The Rebel Alliance exists to put someone else on the Imperial throne. (Who? Mon Mothma? Leia? Luke? Because the only way Luke's getting to rule the galaxy is if he joins Palpatine and then betrays him in such a way as to make it look like an accident.)
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 19, 2009 5:59 PM
in response to: S1th'ari
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*> I really never understood the purpose of this book,
and don't really want to.*
I read it, and it is an interesting read. It is really just to get some debate going, and it isn't about "hating on" Star Wars, but I enjoyed reading it and it didn't diminish my love of SW in any way. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 19, 2009 1:34 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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*Charge 3: Star Wars novels are poor substitutes for real science fiction and are driving real SF off the shelves
Charge 5: Star Wars has dumbed down the perception of science fiction in the popular imagination*
The enduring popularity of such authors as David Drake, Peter F. Hamilton and David Weber - SF writers who have not written Star Wars books - makes this allegation kinda silly.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 18, 2009 11:25 AM
in response to: Sam The Smuggler
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I really never understood the purpose of this book, and don't really want to.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 18, 2009 10:55 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Without having read beyond the first page of this thread, sounds like someone needed something to complain about and chose Star Wars.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 18, 2009 10:19 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Sometimes Brin takes the Star Wars vs. Star Trek thing too seriously.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 17, 2009 1:24 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Those are about the complete opposite of the real Star Wars.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 19, 2006 3:34 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I don't see how this book is "Excessively negative." NOTHING is perfect, and it isn't "bashing" to say "I think **** could have been improved by ****."
This book sounds more like a discussion, where one side upholds the Star Wars mythology as it stands and the other suggests things could've been improved. If I ever find it, I will certainly give it a look.
I think it's interesting to discuss and debate with people who don't share my point of view on something.
Disagreement or not liking some aspect of something does not equal a hate fest.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 17, 2006 7:51 PM
in response to: Jedi_Master_Tah...
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LOL! If they're making a big deal out of that, I
laugh at them. It's an older movie, and no matter how
much they try, there will be problems with the film
itself. Sheesh.
They didn't--make a big deal out of it, that is. On the plot holes charge, a list of fan-cited issues are put in the text as further evidence to support the claim. Fans brought up these points, and the prosecution decided to use them. It's convenient and compelling, so, why not? I only cited one because at the time it bothered me, but there were quite a few.  |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 17, 2006 7:31 PM
in response to: Karen Traviss
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Oh, excitement! Karen Traviss visited my thread.. 
I loved, LOVED your essay in the book and quoted parts of it to my boyfriend because I knew he'd get a kick out of it (he's a fan of your Republic Commando books).
Anyway... On the lightsaber issue. I was just disgruntled. I've made my peace. Lucas, Lucas...
And my problem with the prosecution? I flared up at thinking other people have lives enough not to remember what certain things are called, but heavens. People aren't as tuned into it as many raving fans. I'm all better now. It wasn't nearly enough to ruin my experience. I enjoyed the book and keep recommending it to people...it presents both sides and the ending is great
I'm glad someone else commented in this thread that had actually read the book and that people are going out and buying it! warm fuzzies to you all... |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 17, 2006 4:55 AM
in response to: IllogicalRogue2
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Karen I love your sense of Humor!! :^O
Don't ever lose it
The only things I've ever really lost are my Richard Binder customized Mont Blanc fountain pen, and my patience with the socially and factually challenged. Only one of those was worth searching for ....  |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 17, 2006 2:08 AM
in response to: Karen Traviss
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Karen I love your sense of Humor!! :^O
Don't ever lose it |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 17, 2006 12:54 AM
in response to: Morpheous Uhl E...
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P.S. I can't find Scorch any where, it must be a Sep
plot to undermine me in front of my Clone Army.
Amen. And don't get me started on the Grievous Battle Pack. I finally tracked one down, but finding the Holy Grail would have been easier. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 16, 2006 12:57 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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wow those charges are just ludacris, cmon they obviously havent read much star wars books how are women seen as weak? the witches of dathomir are by far not ever seen as weak, and i would never think someone like Jaina Solo is weak minded or so.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 16, 2006 12:03 PM
in response to: Kyp_ Durron0
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*Like all police actions, the innocent have nothing to fear.
Have I not trained you folks well enough by now? The beatings will continue until morale improves... *
Lol, classic
Seriously, I hope you continue seeing your time on these boards as worth while Karen. I very much enjoy the fact that at any given time I can interact with John, Jan, and Karen and others. I would be very disappointed if we drove you all away because of our misinformation/fan boy b.s. I got the book(s) last night, but won't read it until I finish a couple other books first.
P.S. I can't find Scorch any where, it must be a Sep plot to undermine me in front of my Clone Army. ![]:)](images/emoticons/devil.gif) |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 16, 2006 10:09 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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That hammer hit me right in the temple....
ouch...
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 16, 2006 8:45 AM
in response to: Karen Traviss
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*> Have I not trained you folks well enough by now? The
beatings will continue until morale improves... B-)*
I knew I saw some resemblance between the Mandalorians and the ancient Romans  |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 16, 2006 5:54 AM
in response to: Morpheous Uhl E...
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I absolutely love it when Karen starts dropping
hammers on people (looks up :O )
Like all police actions, the innocent have nothing to fear.
Have I not trained you folks well enough by now? The beatings will continue until morale improves... |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 8:09 PM
in response to: Morpheous Uhl E...
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On the note regarding the discrepancy in Luke's inherited lightsaber in Ep 4..... for years it looked WHITE to me because of the lack of a clearly defined rotoscoping on it in the original cuts. Then it was a little better after the SE, and then it suddenly became green in parts of the DVD release. Not to mention the action figures had YELLOW blades. The reality is that that movie was made on experimental effects technology and you have to forgive those sorts of discrepencies. I mean, if someone was going to bring that up as some sort of charge they'd have to be somewhat of a fan of SW themselves.... because Lord knows non-fans don't gripe about that kind of stuff.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 7:38 PM
in response to: Morpheous Uhl E...
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Finally, we have some of our best Star Wars authors offering a comprehensive defense for the saga against the charges that are most commonly leveled against it.
That's the main reason I'm interested in reading this book. I want to see what Karen has to say. BTW In case anyone's been on Mars, Republic Commando: Hard Contact & Triple Zero are amazingly fun reads (as a result I now own a Clone Army that any small country might fear )
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 7:31 PM
in response to: Karen Traviss
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instead of guesswork, knee-jerk outrage, or relying on second, third and even fourth hand accounts of them. I'm really disappointed to see how many people don't appear to have read it but are still rushing to condemn it. This kind of thing kills my enthusiasm for taking part in these forums, because there can be no informed debate, just entrenched positions based on...what, exactly? Rumour? Not liking the cover? What your mate told you because his mate knew someone who had read one page?
I absolutely love it when Karen starts dropping hammers on people (looks up :O ) I've never heard of the book (or the series) until today, I will pick up the Starwars (and probably the Matrix and Simpsons) book later tonight. Until then......duck!!!
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 2:53 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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The book, no more than you were, is not out to get people upset, it's to talk about those things that have been brought up about SW over the years
In some ways, this book could (I haven't read it yet, so can't say for sure) be viewed as a blessing: Finally, we have some of our best Star Wars authors offering a comprehensive defense for the saga against the charges that are most commonly leveled against it.
RG
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 1:56 PM
in response to: Kyp_ Durron0
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I don't think you or anyone else in the thread has meant get anyone upset, but a lot of people who love SW worked on this book too, and they wouldn't have if it was some kind of smear book. It's clearly written with a nod and a wink and the publishers did a fine job.
It's not something I'd call a must have, but for some reading and even education, about SW and SF in general it's worth the price of admission.
The book, no more than you were, is not out to get people upset, it's to talk about those things that have been brought up about SW over the years.
Honestly, I'm not sure if some of the "charges" have the same impact as they would have even ten years ago, as I think SF has pretty much "arrived" in the mainstream, and SW is seen as much as a pop icon as a fandom and a universe.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 1:52 PM
in response to: Kyp_ Durron0
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Kyp,
Anyone who has been an SF fan knows that there are some noses out of joint in the industry over how large a role SW (and ST) play in defining what the public thinks of SF. No more or less then noses got out of joint when JK Rowling hit it big with Harry Potter and fantasy began to be defined by that or LoTR.
So, hey, I can understand people being defensive about SW. If I had a dollar for every person who ever said "Live Long and Prosper" or "May the Force Be with You" when I mentioned I liked SF (as if SW/ST) was the end all and be all, I'd be a rich man.
I understand people being a little defensive when a book with this title comes along, but all it takes is ten seconds to google it or click on a link and get educated before going off about the book, and even then there's only so much to be said without reading it.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 1:45 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I just want to say i never meant to get anyone upset, I was mearly stating what I think and i'm sorry if I offened anybody, (and I didn't realize this book was pro Star Wars at all, it just didn't seem so from what ive seen so far) but I'm not trying to start a huge debate or anything of the like
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 10:50 AM
in response to: Master Ki-Aaron...
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http://www.benbellabooks. com/upcomingline.html
http://www.benbellabooks.co m/catSmartPop.htm
Everything from popular SF shows like Farscape and Stargate to books on philosophy in the Simpsons and critical looks at Narnia and The Matrix and basically stuff all across the board.
This book has been set in an "On Trial" mode, and having read most of it, the tone is obviously only semi-serious and the topics are wide ranging and reflect questions and complaints raised since SW began.
IOW, David Brin isn't coming to burn your EU books and Lucas isn't locked up somewhere waiting a verdict to set him free. I should think the cover alone would point right at the "nod-wink" nature of the book.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 9:43 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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The company involved have done a large number of books based on pop culture icons and references, it's part of a long line of books based on pop culture icons that present two sides in a mock debate
Out of curiosity, could anyone "in the know" tell what other pop culture icons have been debated, and what "charges" were brought against them? Just wanting to see if there are other ones of these I might want to look into...
My copy of "Star Wars on Trial" is in the mail, hopefully it'll arrive soon and I can comment on it in earnest.
RG
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 8:20 AM
in response to: JamesGilmer
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No offense taken, but from what i've seen, they
picked this topic in the hope of getting people riled
up enough to buy the book, hence the money making...
so the two go hand in hand, IMO
I don't have time to get into a debate but I couldn't let this thread pass unremarked any longer.
Kyp, this accusation of BenBella "riling" people is simply not true. You're basing their motive on your individual reaction. Have you actually read the book? If not, how can you have an opinion on it, let alone one on the editor and the publisher?
There's no controversy here. It's an old debate, as old as the franchise. This is the coming-up-to-30th-anniversary retrospective.
Look at the range of books Benbella do. They cover ALL franchises and major media phenomena. It's what they do: pop essays. I did a Philip Pullman piece for them recently , and they ask me and other SF/F authors to contribute to a wide range of books.
I find your comment illogical given that half the book is pro-SW. It's a debate. In Benbella's hands, it's balanced, with equal weight given to both sides. Folks could just as easily say it's there to upset people who don't like SW because there's too much pro-SW stuff in it, and that SW might be "proven innocent.".
Trials normally start from the premise of "innocent until proven guilty." People get cleared at trials, too. And it's left up to the reader to decide the verdict, if they want to come down on one side at all. Many people don't. They just want to read what a wide range of writers have to say on a culturally-embedded phenomenon. .
General comment to everyone: I wish people would actually read the books they seek to discuss before commenting on them - and the people who profduce them - instead of guesswork, knee-jerk outrage, or relying on second, third and even fourth hand accounts of them. I'm really disappointed to see how many people don't appear to have read it but are still rushing to condemn it. This kind of thing kills my enthusiasm for taking part in these forums, because there can be no informed debate, just entrenched positions based on...what, exactly? Rumour? Not liking the cover? What your mate told you because his mate knew someone who had read one page?
By all means hold your own SW trial, because that's a fun exercise in itself. But if you're going to discuss the book and the motives of those who published it and took part in it - and that latter area is a minefield it's a good idea to avoid, because we discuss books, not people here, right? - why not try to meet us halfway and actually read it first. It's a wild and wacky idea, I know, but it just might work... |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 15, 2006 8:01 AM
in response to: Kyp_ Durron0
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Kyp,
The company involved have done a large number of books based on pop culture icons and references, it's part of a long line of books based on pop culture icons that present two sides in a mock debate.
This debate isn't exactly new either.
And the shocking revelation that a publishing company might be in the business of making money...I mean, really, of course it was written to make money, and the people involved were payed money.
Having read the book it's a fun little debate that offers just as much pro for every con argument, and the tone is very much semi-serious, so I really wish people would save their outrage for some that actually deserves it than a little book put out to offer a look at pop culture attitudes towards the GFFA.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 14, 2006 5:37 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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No offense taken, but from what i've seen, they picked this topic in the hope of getting people riled up enough to buy the book, hence the money making... so the two go hand in hand, IMO
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 14, 2006 2:09 PM
in response to: Master Ki-Aaron...
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If you watch the scene with Luke in ANH training on
the Millenium Falcon on the latest DVD release, his
saber looks green in a number of shots. It wasn't
true in previous versions, I have no idea how it
slipped past quality control, but it's there.
RG
Disappointment, Lucas. Disappointment.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 14, 2006 2:08 PM
in response to: Kyp_ Durron0
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Well, no offense, but you don't really know that they did it for the purpose of upsetting people. For money, sure, why not?
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 10:42 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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There isn't a single person who can offend me by having an opinion that differs from mine about Star Wars...
I can agree with that, but when they voice those opinions to upset people and make a buck that gets to me....
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 9:51 PM
in response to: Master Ki-Aaron...
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*Now, I wear glasses, but I'm by no means blind and
I'm wondering what fan actually thought Luke's
lightsaber in the first two movies was green? It's
blue. Anakin's was blue and since Luke has that
saber, his is blue. It's blue. Not green. Blue. You
can see it's blue. I mean really. It's blue
Eh... I know where he's coming from... *looks
guilty*
If you watch the scene with Luke in ANH training on
the Millenium Falcon on the latest DVD release, his
saber looks green in a number of shots. It wasn't
true in previous versions, I have no idea how it
slipped past quality control, but it's there.
*RG**
LOL! If they're making a big deal out of that, I laugh at them. It's an older movie, and no matter how much they try, there will be problems with the film itself. Sheesh. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 9:43 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Phew, my rant is almost done ( I hope :D)
Charge #8: The Plot Holes and Logical Gaps in Star Wars Make It Ill-Suited for an Intelligent Viewer.:
Hmmmm...... I suppose at times this may be true, but what do you expect? In a universe as big as the SW universe, it could be a lot worse, considering all of the authors working on different novels at the same time, naturally there will be some issues. But this is an overstatement. SW really is not that BAD when it comes to this. Believe me, it could be a whole lot worse.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like it when people take interest in SW, even to the point of criticizing it, but if it is criticized, the arguments should be a lot better then that. At least make them logical before saying that SW is full of plot holes and whatnot.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 9:34 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge #7: Women in Star Wars Are Portrayed as Fundamentally Weak:
Oh boy. Now, I'm not a girl (Tahiri BTW is just my favourite female EU character) but this claim is ridiculous. How about Leia? She practically put together the NR and held it together till the Vong arrived, was a mother, a jedi, a wife, and so on, so on.... Mon Mothma? Co-founder of the Rebel-Alliance that defeated the empire? Mara Jade, the Emperor's Hand, Jedi Master, Wife and Mother? Padme Amidala, who was mother to one of the most powerful jedi ever and wife and senator and queen b4 that? Tenel Ka, who took over as Queen Mother in Hapes which is one of the most powerful forces in SW and she's a crazy (awesome type crazy) ONE ARMED warrior to boot? And then of course, there's Tahiri Veila Who survived the Vong transforming and became stronger for it, and she's a powerful Jedi and she's got multiple personalities! (LOL, well sort of). So how are women in SW not strong again?
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 9:22 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge #5: Star Wars Has Dumbed Down the Perception of Science Fiction in the Popular Imagination:
Hahaha. LOL! Science Fiction did that to itself. If anything, Star Wars was the antidote to the apocalypse type Sci-Fi that happened before SW:ANH.
Charge #6: Star Wars Pretends to Be Science Fiction, but Is Really Fantasy:
No? Really? Rolls Eyes in annoyance Fantasy is probably just plain better then SCIFI cause of it's Story telling ability. Like, plot, characters, etc. what makes SW so good is that GL takes the best of BOTH WORLDS while none of the bad parts from either to create Über-Goodness!!! Also, it has been stated many times that SW is more Sci-Fantasy then Sci-Fi. Kudos to GL for thinking up SW in the first place!
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 9:19 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Now, I wear glasses, but I'm by no means blind and I'm wondering what fan actually thought Luke's lightsaber in the first two movies was green? It's blue. Anakin's was blue and since Luke has that saber, his is blue. It's blue. Not green. Blue. You can see it's blue. I mean really. It's blue
Eh... I know where he's coming from... looks guilty
If you watch the scene with Luke in ANH training on the Millenium Falcon on the latest DVD release, his saber looks green in a number of shots. It wasn't true in previous versions, I have no idea how it slipped past quality control, but it's there.
RG
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 9:10 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge #3: Star Wars Novels Are Poor Substitutes for Real Science Fiction and Are Driving Real SF off the Shelves.:
Riiiiiiiiight. Look, Star Wars is actually GOOD (mostly) literature that kicks the teeth out of most Sci-Fi. If it wasn't, WHY WOULD IT STILL BE POPULAR? Also, Star Wars is NOT Science Fiction, technically it is Science FANTASY! Man, if prosecution have a problem with so-called real Sci-fi being driven off the shelves, why not go write some good Sci-Fi?
Charge #4: Science Fiction Filmmaking Has Been Reduced by Star Wars to Poorly Written Special Effects Extravaganzas.:
Seriously, anyone who has watched the original trilogy before the special edition was released will knows that SW was popular NOT because of Special Effects, but because of the STORY. The CHARACTERS. The special effects in Epi. I-III weren't in the original trilogy. Enough said. Sci-Fi did movie suicide on itself, not SW's fault.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 8:58 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Wow, Star Wars on trial huh? Well, this is basically the same stuff that other people have already said, but anyways:
Charge #1: The Politics of Star Wars Are Anti-Democratic and Elitist:
If you're the Sith Lord trying to convince Anakin that the Jedi are evil, then maybe you think this is true. Of course, this is about as true as THAT claim is, so what does that say?
On top of that, Obi-Wan in episode III CLEARLY states (unless you're blind and deaf) "Anakin my duty is to the Republic! To democracy!" I don't think that this claim has any truth at all.
Charge #2: While Claiming Mythic Significance, Star Wars Portrays No Admirable Religious or Ethical Beliefs.:
How about Unity? How about valuing *LIFE*? Showing responsibilty to others as well as to one's self? Even at it's most basic level, Star Wars is *GOOD VS. EVIL*! This is a pretty important concept, in almost every religion, if not all of them!
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 11:23 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Also, one of the prosecutors wonders why Luke was sent to live with the Skywalkers on Tatooine. He wasn't. He was sent to live with the Lars family. (I make this point because the author nitpicked about the last name)
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 13, 2006 11:23 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I wanted to make a comment on the book.. I''m almost finished (just a few pages left), but I can't help being utterly disappointed with the defense on certain issues. It seems, at times, that the witnesses didn't bother to pay attention to the movies at all.
One issue.. Brin cites fan discovered plotholes (without looking into them himself it seems), one being among them the "fact" that Obi-Wan gives Luke a green lightsaber. That's right. A green one. Now, I wear glasses, but I'm by no means blind and I'm wondering what fan actually thought Luke's lightsaber in the first two movies was green? It's blue. Anakin's was blue and since Luke has that saber, his is blue. It's blue. Not green. Blue. You can see it's blue. I mean really. It's blue. Don't tell me this same fan says Mace Windu's lightsaber is orange....
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 12, 2006 11:09 AM
in response to: Amy B.
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His point seems more that people go in thinking "Brain Candy", if you will, is hard SF--a substitute for the real thing. The witness for the prosecution (Lou Anders) on that point also says that the likes of Star Wars sets a bad example for potential authors who want to go into the real, literary thing, which I think is complete bull. If you want to write real literary works of art, you most likely automatically look to other literature for examples. That's not saying looking at Star Wars is bad! I'm just stating his points. Plus, he makes sure to state that there's nothing wrong with reading for escapism. Since that was never his intended point, I think he made a fair argument on certain points.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 11:14 PM
in response to: doritojedi
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It seems like Brin thinks that if Star Wars weren't around, its readers would read other science fiction books instead. That sure isn't true for me. I read a bunch of serious science fiction during my college years, and I've had my fill of it. These days I read mostly nonfiction, a bit of literary fiction, and a fair bit of pure escapism in the form of Star Wars books, Harry Potter, and similar fare.
There's just nothing wrong with wanting to escape into a pleasant fantasy world once in a while and enjoy the relative simplicity of the battle between good and evil. Star Wars is perfect for that. Hard science fiction does not fill that need at all.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 6:10 PM
in response to: doritojedi
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A post-script on my little three-post rant . . .
Note that Del Rey uses mostly fantasy authors or double-duty authors (Tim Zahn, Greg Bear) to write Star Wars stories, while Bantam used pure sci-fi authors. Note that the Bantam books are often criticized and torn to pieces except Zahn's material.
There are exceptions, of course. Kevin J. Anderson gets criticized a lot as well and he's a fantasy author, though I personally liked the Jedi Academy Trilogy, and I think Darksaber was a lifesaver for Star Wars. Callista . . . shudders. KJA did the right thing sending her far, far away from Luke . . .
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 5:41 PM
in response to: doritojedi
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Star Wars must rely on the CHARACTERS and STORY and PLOT, for some of what's in there (like the Force or the Jedi or the lightsaber) are so laughable in science fiction that it can't truly be considered such. Star Wars is a science fantasy. And you know what? I like it.
The one thing David gets us on is the plot holes . . . but that goes with the territory. How many plot holes can be found in Forgotten Realms or Dune or Star Trek . . . it happens when you have a bazillion authors working in a pre-made universe . . . and not all of them know a lot about the material they've just been contracted for.
That's probably why Del Rey seems to be choosing mostly SW vets now to write the stories . . .
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 5:36 PM
in response to: doritojedi
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That is often why the best science fiction is written by moonlighting fantasy writers or by sci-fi authors who have written fantasy. They understand that it is the STORY that matters, that by concentrating on engaging CHARACTERS and assembling imaginative dreamscapes populated by characters who are truly alive and breathing and detailed and chock-full of personality, they will find more success, for everyone seems more human.
This isn't a rambling against the IDEA or the CONCEPT. I'm just saying that science fiction needs a refresher in STORY and CHARACTERS and PLOT. The reader must be completely sucked in. Not all of us are Issac Asimov-style geniuses who only need a brilliant IDEA to crank out an engaging read. There must be something actually going on, too.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 5:32 PM
in response to: Dragonmz2
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Star Wars is in an area of its own: science fantasy. There's some actual science in there, but it's buried underneath the space-faring swashbuckling fantasy adventure.
Want to make sci-fi books sell, David? Here's a hint: take a page from the fantasy writers' playbook. A major problem with sci-fi is that the IDEA is most important, the CONCEPT of a space colony, not the PLOT or the STORY or the CHARACTERS inside that space colony. The best way to make sci-fi books sell is to put the PLOT and STORY and CHARACTERS first like fantasy authors.
Fantasy authors need to work hard fashioning their worlds and characters to suspend the reader, for their worlds don't have a chance of existing, while sci-fi stays within the realm of plausability. Christopher Paolini is a good example. Eragon completely suspended me. Eldest, on the other hand, was so sloppily written and so many characters turned cardboard I could barely finish it.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 12:45 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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*Charge 8: The plot holes and logical gaps in
Star
Wars make it ill-suited for an intelligent
viewer*
It just comes down to this; If you don't like it,
don't read it.
And in the process, stop offending people who
enjoy
it.
Enough said.
There isn't a single person who can offend me by
having an opinion that differs from mine about Star
Wars...
That's when you know for sure, you're a Star Wars fan...I have friends who find reading Star Wars stupid, but I still do it. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 11:42 AM
in response to: *Godess-Yun-Har...
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*Charge 8: The plot holes and logical gaps in Star
Wars make it ill-suited for an intelligent viewer*
It just comes down to this; If you don't like it,
don't read it.
And in the process, stop offending people who enjoy
it.
Enough said.
There isn't a single person who can offend me by having an opinion that differs from mine about Star Wars... |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 11:41 AM
in response to: Master Ki-Aaron...
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*>I meant that to read,
"In fact, I'm even guessing the prosecutors
aren't sniveling little Star Wars-haters. My
guess is they wrote this because they thought it'd be
fun."
Which I think is more in line with the rest of my
comments.
Again, looks like a fun read; as a matter of fact, I
ordered it on Amazon about an hour ago.*
All is forgiven... |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 7:01 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge 8: The plot holes and logical gaps in Star Wars make it ill-suited for an intelligent viewer
It just comes down to this; If you don't like it, don't read it.
And in the process, stop offending people who enjoy it.
Enough said.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 7:00 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge 6: Star Wars pretends to be science fiction, but is really fantasy
Star Wars doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. It's commonly known as 'Sci-Fi/Fantasy', so suck on those lemons.
Charge 7: Women in Star Wars are portrayed as fundamentally weak
haha this is a joke right?
Let me see, Leia played an intergral part in the rebellion, the thrawn crisis, the yuzhaan vong and the killik war. Mara Jade was the former emperor's hand, no-one gets that job if your 'weak'. Jaina has been fighting evil since she was born. She's stepped up and risen to the occasion whenever it's needed her to.
Then you have Vegere, Tenal Ka, Tahiri, Lumiya, Padme' ect ect ect.
These Women are not 'weak' in essence, or overall. Star Wars shows them as 'human' in all forms. They have their strengths and their weaknesses, which makes them 'realistic'. If showing emotion is 'weak', then we are all guilty.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 6:43 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge 2: While claiming mythic significance, Star Wars portrays no admirable religious or ethical beliefs.
That is a load of bantha fodder. As a christian myself, i can openly read Star Wars and attribute the same ethics and morals it has towards life and people into Christianity. The Force itself is a testimony of how you can have Christian readings of Star Wars.
To say that it has 'no admirable religious or ethical beliefs' is rubbish. I have sat through Bible studies and can easily translate passages and teachings to what Star Wars incorporates and says in it's books, comics and movies. I could even go as far to say it aids me in my walk with God.
Charge 3: Star Wars novels are poor substitutes for real science fiction and are driving real SF off the shelves
If it's 'driving real science fiction off the shelves', that's not degrading Star Wars, that's a testimony to how poor SF is being written these days. So back off i say.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 5:52 AM
in response to: Wampa_Jedi
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"Did you wreck that guy on purpose or was it an accident."
Darth_Wampa, you KNOW it was on purpose...
I know, but jr. went from 8th to 5th, so I didn't mind.
I guess I was pre-judging this book, I won't pick it up but I'll follow the thread so I can learn more about it. Maybe my library will have it.
The verdict is in!!!..........SW is clear on all charges!!!.............:p |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 2:03 AM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Whoever came up with the charge about how women are dumbed down seriously couldn't have read any of the books, or paid too much attention in the movies. While the men did almost all of the fighting in the movies it was Padme that evoked some of the greatest change (see the Ep. III deleted scenes to see what I mean). Also how can characters like Leia, Mara, and Jaina exist if Star Wars existed to dumb down women.
Also how is it anti-democratic? Did I miss something or were all of the heroes on the side democracy and the Republic (I think Obi-Wan may have said something about his allegience being to the Republic and democracy) and weren't the villians, most notably Palpatine and Vader, on the side empires and tyranny? If I missed something from the many times I watched the movies and all of the books I read could someone let me know.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 11, 2006 12:45 AM
in response to: Master Ki-Aaron...
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I actually want to get this book...I like that it 's somewhat of a reminder to analyze what you really read, and not looking at the words. Heh...when I first read the title of this thread, I thought Lucas Arts was seriously in trouble for something....lol..good thing I actually read through.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 10:42 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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In fact, I'm even guessing the prosecutors are sniveling little Star Wars-haters. My guess is they wrote this because they thought it'd be fun
I wish people read the rest of the thread
D'oh!  Of course I had to make a stupid type-o like that. I meant that to read,
"In fact, I'm even guessing the prosecutors aren't sniveling little Star Wars-haters. My guess is they wrote this because they thought it'd be fun."
Which I think is more in line with the rest of my comments.
Again, looks like a fun read; as a matter of fact, I ordered it on Amazon about an hour ago.
RG
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 10:05 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I actually think that it is rather funny that people are criticizing Star Wars for doing anything AGAINST** science fiction, because in many ways Star Wars is one of (if not the) main reason(s) that Science Fiction became at all popular in our culture, or if not popular than at least influenced the way people perceive SCI-FI in any positive way.
Not to mention that at it's very core star wars can be reduced to Good vs. Evil. I think that THAT shows some sort of belief.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 8:47 PM
in response to: Master Ki-Aaron...
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. In fact,
I'm even guessing the prosecutors are sniveling
little Star Wars-haters. My guess is they wrote this
because they thought it'd be fun.
RG
I wish people read the rest of the thread :\
Everyone contributing to the essays of the book are Star Wars fans. It's not a gripe about Star Wars, it's a medium where many different authors could get together and discuss their fandom... I've begun reading it and it's a very fun book |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 8:31 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I see a few people here who get riled up by the idea that someone is putting Star Wars on "trial."<<
Personally, I have no problem with someone putting Star Wars on "trial".
But most of David Brin's arguments are "wah wah, Star Wars is ruining my craft because it's thinning out legitimate sci fi".
I have no pity for David Brin. He's attacked Star Wars for a long time now (this book is not his first attack on it), and I could care less for his complaints. Again, if Star Wars espouses elitism, then WTH is he doing when he looks down his nose at it and says 'it's not intelligent fiction'? He is a hypocrite to say Star Wars espouses elitism and then call it unsophisticated, low brow entertainment in the same breath
The onus is on sci-fi writers to WRITE BETTER SCI FI if they want people to pay attention to them. Not to jump up and down, cry and moan and attack Star Wars for being more popular. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 8:04 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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...Now, I'm not saying Star Wars is in any way guilty of the above charges. I just think Star Wars is not the one that deserves to be put on trial.
Which is part of the reason why this book looks so interesting to me. I imagine I'll find the prosecution parts as the most interesting, in fact, and the existence of the defense parts is what keeps it balanced enough to make it enjoyable (I'm assuming), and not heavy-handed criticism. In fact, I'm even guessing the prosecutors are sniveling little Star Wars-haters. My guess is they wrote this because they thought it'd be fun.
RG
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 8:04 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Looks like an interesting read, I'll have to pick it up.
I'm very curious how the prosecution is going to handle some of these charges because, the way I see it, it's all about supply and demand.
You can't hold Star Wars responsible if people will gobble up a story (supposedly) devoid of value. If people are willing to pay for a story that (supposedly) is full of plot holes, portrays women as weak, dumbs down sci-fi, over-promotes special effects, replaces good sci-fi books, has no redeeming religious or ethical values, and has elitist politics, then that's a criticism of society. Kudos to Star Wars for discovering this demand and developing a supply.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 7:43 PM
in response to: spanKdaDarkmonkey
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The only charge they've got us on is #8, the plot holes charge.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 6:48 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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wow what crap, if sci-fi people actually moan about that crap thats weak. If its crap then make better novels to outcompete. People are so jealous its unbelievable.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 4:53 PM
in response to: Jeff Ferguson
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Darth_Wampa, nice to see another NASCAR fan here in the GFFA....
I like the concept. I don't remember seeing these on the other subjects, but just about all of them Mara mentioned sound like things I now want to read....my bank account "thanks" you.
I see a few people here who get riled up by the idea that someone is putting Star Wars on "trial." What's REALLY funny to me is that a lot of them are the same arguments I see on SW fan sites. It seems a case of "me and my brother will fight each other, but when someone jumps in, we'll both beat the crap outta him." It shows a bond among fans who are even on the opposite sides of arguments.
"Did you wreck that guy on purpose or was it an accident."
Darth_Wampa, you KNOW it was on purpose... |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 4:26 PM
in response to: Jeff Ferguson
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While Han sat around drinking away his sorrows, she was on the front lines, helping find homes for displaced refugees, and defending the galaxy at the Battle of Dantooine and others.
Props to Stover for defending. I hope the fact that he's done this without LFL's permission doesn't put him in bad favour with them, though.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 4:25 PM
in response to: Jeff Ferguson
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Sure, she was kidnapped in Episode IV --- but that was part of the archetypal plot that made the film so brilliant. She was the damsel in distress, but as soon as she was rescued, she began taking charge and kicking a ss. She was a member of the Imperial Senate at the age of 18, and did a huge part in leading the Rebellion to overthrow a despotic and tyrannical regime that ruled an entire galaxy. Even when she was reduced to the slave girl outfit to produce sex appeal, she killed Jabba the Hutt.
In the EU, she did a gigantic part in bringing peace to the galaxy and setting up a new, democratic, galaxy-wide government, from what? --- From a disorganized and scattered Rebellion. Whenever a galactic crisis struck, she was quick to act to help save the galaxy. Take the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, for example.
(cont'd)
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 4:21 PM
in response to: Jeff Ferguson
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Charge 3: * Star Wars Novels Are Poor Substitutes for Real Science Fiction and Are Driving Real SF off the Shelves.*
I sincerely doubt that the prosecution has read more than a few SW novels, if even. It's very easy to make the assumption that SW novels are poor and juvenile. Tell a non-geeky friend that you're reading a Star Wars book, and they'll subtly look down their nose at you. The fact is, a large number of SW novels are masterpieces of modern fiction. Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith, Star By Star, I, Jedi --- these should be classified amongst the greatest Sci-Fi/Fantasy of all time.
Charge 7: Women in Star Wars Are Portrayed as Fundamentally Weak.
Again, terribly untrue and unfounded. Princess Leia has to be one of the strongest female film characters ever.
(cont'd)
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 4:18 PM
in response to: Jeff Ferguson
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How many religions in the real world come even close to this? Our world is filled with fundamentalist zealots who kill and mass murder in the name of their religion, and even Western Religions are far from embracing the beliefs of others. Buddhism could claim that title, and maybe some other Eastern Religions, but still a scant few.
How can one call the Jedi unethical? By embracing life and dedicating themselves to its preservation, they managed to maintain galactic peace for 1000 years. Then there's that whole matter of Luke saving the galaxy every week.
(cont'd)
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 4:16 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I've always admired Star Wars for its realistic view of democracy. To me, this is best represented in such New Republic Novels as the Thrawn Trilogy and the Black Fleet Crisis. Greedy and squabbling senators doing anything possible for their own personal gain. Democracy isn't the pretty picture that everyone would like it to be; it has its flaws as much as any other system does, and SW realistically portrays these flaws. This isn't anti-democratic. Corruption exists in even the most advanced democracies --- look no further than the Liberal Party of Canada's Sponsorship Scandal of a couple of years ago.
No Admirable or Ethical Religious Beliefs? The Jedi do their utmost to save innocent lives, to prevent death whenever possible (even against the most guilty of foes), and embrace all beliefs and doctrines.
(cont'd)
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 3:11 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Yup, I saw that in B&N the other day and flipped through it.
The cover illustrations were cute, and some of the arguments were in that Austin Powers-style Stupid-but-funny fashion. I just hope no SW nOObs or laymen actually take any of it seriously.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 3:06 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge 7: Women in Star Wars are portrayed as fundamentally weak
Princess Leia. Mon Mothma. Padme Amidala. Jaina Solo. Mara Jade. Tenel Ka. Guri. The nightsisters of Dathomir. Aayla Secura. The Dark Woman. I could name more but what?s the point? I could cite examples of why these are all strong women, but why bother? Anyone that has informed themselves on this charge before making it?obviously would never make it.
Charge 8: The plot holes and logical gaps in Star Wars make it ill-suited for an intelligent viewer
Response: An interesting charge coming from the author of The Postman.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 3:06 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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The author for the prosecution (don't be put off with the negativity of that name.. it's a trial, both sides should be present! ) admits in his introduction (Stover has his own intro, too.. he's for the defense) very proudly, that he is a Star Wars fan. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 3:05 PM
in response to: darth_wampa
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The very fact that someone felt compelled to analyze Star Wars instead of just attacking it, means they're taking it for something important--something that will forever be held in history of films and of the impact it had with a large generation of not just Americans, but people worldwide.
I'd flattered if someone took a creative product of my own and wanted to understand it from the inside out. Why? Because for me, that's the best kind of an impact--it's why books are studied for not just their content, but their resonance in society and with certain topics. Star Wars is lasting and it's become natural of academics (as with the Philosophy books) or authors (this book in particular) to want to talk about what has gotten not just fans excited, but them as well!
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 3:05 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge 5: Star Wars has dumbed down the perception of science fiction in the popular imagination.:
Response: Correct. Again, not Star Wars? fault. Write better sci-fi so that it doesn?t become completely irrelevant in the popular imagination. People gravitate to what they want to read. Fantasy is just more popular than sci-fi, and Star Wars is an effective fusion of the two concepts.
Charge 6: Star Wars pretends to be science fiction, but is really fantasy
Response: Correct. And thank goodness for that because that is what makes it work.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 3:05 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge 3: Star Wars novels are poor substitutes for real science fiction and are driving real SF off the shelves
Response: Correct, because it?s not science fiction. As for driving real SF off the shelves, I have this to offer: write better science fiction that people will want to read. Fantasy will always trump sci-fi popularity wise. It?s closer to peoples? hearts. Name me one sci fi franchise that has done even remotely as well as Star Wars. You can?t because it doesn?t exist. Lord of the Rings, however, is fantasy and stands up with Star Wars. Get used to it. People like fairy tales.
Charge 4: Science fiction filmmaking has been reduced to by Star Wars to poorly written special effects extravaganzas.
Response: Read above comment. As with sci-fi novels, make sci-fi movies that can engage the imagination of people. By the same token aren?t you thumbing your elitist nose at Star Wars for not being worthy storytelling when compared to sci-fi? Pot meet kettle.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 3:04 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Charge 1: The politics of Star Wars are anti-democratic and elitist.
Response: Not really, but they certainly are in any fantasy or sword and sorcery novel. Should this entire genre be abolished then? Star Wars is really just fantasy with sci-fi clothes on, with greater attention to realistic politics than your average story of these trappings. Of course, if detractors actually read the novels, they?d understand that. An uninformed accusation.
Charge 2: While claiming mythic significance, Star Wars portrays no admirable religious or ethical beliefs.
Response: Overthrowing an oppressive regime that will literally blow up a planet just to prove a point to a single young woman is certainly ethical.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 2:56 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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If anything, it could help
incite a random fan to analyze not just Star Wars,
but anything else to get more out of it if they chose to.
I don't think that's the intention though, everything is analyzed nowadays. The President sneezes and analysts asks "Does he have the flu, is he dying?" Kobe Bryant and the Lakers lose a B-ball game and those reporters pick apart every play, I mean the other team made more shots, it's that simple. They even over-analyze NASCAR (my other love), "Did you wreck that guy on purpose or was it an accident." Doesn't matter, the guy wrecked and lost, doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not. I guess it's just me, but I like SW and if people don't that's fine, but just leave it alone. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 2:47 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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They're collections of essays, and remember, it's prosecution and defense. So you get both sides, with no clear output because it's up to the fan ultimately to decide.. which is, after all, the only thing that matters.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 2:43 PM
in response to: Wampa_Jedi
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It's part of a series of books that does with this with other pop culture fandoms... superman, serenity, buffy, and tons more. Smart Pop is the name, and there's other series style books that do this sort of thing. The Pop Culture and Philosophy books are interesting (Star Wars, Harry Potter, LOTR, Narnia, Baseball... etc.. pretty much the same series as the other one)--I dont' think anyone does this just to get a rile out of people. It's great to know that people think that deeply about something that's part of popular culture. If anything, it could help incite a random fan to analyze not just Star Wars, but anything else to get more out of it if they chose to.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 2:35 PM
in response to: darth_wampa
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I've not read this yet, but Mara did say the book leaves the "verdict" pretty much up to the readers.
The charges are things I've seen for years, in one form or another. Having not yet read the book, I can't state this with any authority, but it's possible this book was put together by a fan to give the SW community a chance to "put to rest" these things.
Or, it could honestly be written by someone with no preconception or "answer" one way or another. I'm not cynical enough to +totally +discount this.... |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 2:25 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I hope Matt, Karen, and Kristine let that guy know what's up. I mean he probably see's people having a good time, enjoying SW, dressing up for the movies and decides to crash the party. Personally, I don't like it when things are picked apart and analyzed like that. If you don't like SW, don't buy it, it's that simple. I don't see how SW could hurt other movies and books, maybe they aren't as good as SW, Pirates of the Caribbean was fantastic, I think it broke box office records. And then the charge on the novels not being good, come on, the paperback versions of HB almost always say New York Times Bestseller, I saw Betrayal reach #10 on the list. Heir to the Empire reached #1. He probably read a few negetive blogs and now he's an expert. Oh well, there's haters out there on everything it seems.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 2:00 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I loved the line about creepy old men goading you to lose your temper. :^O priceless.
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 1:50 PM
in response to: Wampa_Jedi
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I completely agree with you on the scifi/fantasy thing.. I was a little surprised they actually tried to use that as a charge seeing as how it's not GL that puts it in stores at scifi, it's the industry...
same goes for books, but most bookstores I've gone to (including the one I work in) puts it in a separate section labeled "Star Wars"... no designation whatsoever |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 1:42 PM
in response to: IllogicalRogue2
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Charges 5 and 6 are the ones that greatly amuse me...
Lucas always said it was a fantasy story, just with space ships. So, for Charge 6, we should all proudly shout out +MEA CULPA+!
That said, Charge 5 says it's "dumbed down" Sci-Fi. Well, we've established it's not Sci-Fi, so this charge SHOULD be negated, but for the sake of discussion....
Star Wars was never originally INTENDED to have greater meaning. Lucas wanted to recapture the excitement of cheesy, action-packed Saturday Matinee cliffhangers. It wasn't supposed to be the "social commentary of the century." It was supposed to be (and is) just a fun movie...
(did I get the conversation started adequetly? ) |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 1:38 PM
in response to: IllogicalRogue2
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soft cover, trade paperback size. It's $17.95 But at Amazon you can get it for about $11. |
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 1:17 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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Who ever came up with those charges has issues :^O
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Re: Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 1:09 PM
in response to: Mara Jade ©
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I just picked up the book yesterday at work, but haven't started it. I'll post up the charges anyway:
Charge 1: The politics of Star Wars are anti-democratic and elitist.
Charge 2: While claiming mythic significance, Star Wars portrays no admirable religious or ethical beliefs.
Charge 3: Star Wars novels are poor substitutes for real science fiction and are driving real SF off the shelves
Charge 4: Science fiction filmmaking has been reduced to by Star Wars to poorly written special effects extravaganzas
Charge 5: Star Wars has dumbed down the perception of science fiction in the popular imagination
Charge 6: Star Wars pretends to be science fiction, but is really fantasy
Charge 7: Women in Star Wars are portrayed as fundamentally weak
Charge 8: The plot holes and logical gaps in Star Wars make it ill-suited for an intelligent viewer
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Star Wars on Trial
Posted:
Jul 10, 2006 1:09 PM
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The title of an unauthorized book published by Benbella books and released a couple of weeks ago literally places Star Wars on Trial.
Matthew Woodring Stover, Karen Traviss, and Kristine Kathryn Rusch are a few familiar faces on the defense of eight separate charges being held against the series. The site has a forum where fans can get together to vote and discuss the topics of the book, but I thought, if it hasn't already been brought up here, why not discuss them in these forums? |
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