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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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twittle


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 27, 2011 9:47 AM   in response to: Master Optician in response to: Master Optician
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I'm not entirely sure why, but MO has requested that I opine on the issues in this thread.

Unlike him, I do not think that most of the EU is, in his words, "freaking awesome"; I think much of it is poorly-written pulp (I'm not here to trash anything, though, so I won't belabor the point). I do completely agree with him on the issue of the disclaimer, though. The EU is purely the interpretation of the author, and should be taken with a grain of salt, no matter how difficult that is. It is not authoritative.

My own philosophy with respect to the EU will be considered heresy by many, I'm sure. I call it Personal Canon. If I like an element of the EU, I accept it; if not, it gets thrown on the proverbial ash heap of history.

I despise the idea of retconing; errors in continuity should be caught before publishing, and changing the facts (the equivalent of historical revisionism) after they happen is anathema to me. That said, there are so many continuity issues in play that something should be done about them. But for fans to expect anything at all is ludicrous. If people are that invested in Star Wars, they have misplaced priorities. And if you don't like something, reject it -- either ignore it from the standpoint of the story, or in an economic sense (stop buying SW). Star Wars (and by extension Lucas) does not owe anyone anything at all.
"In tax, as in comedy, timing matters." -- Circuit Judge Alex Kozinski in Paracchi v. Commissioner, United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit, 1998. 143 F.3d 487.
the fragrant wo...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 27, 2011 9:30 AM   in response to: Master Optician in response to: Master Optician
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I agree that much of the EU out there is freaking awesome, but it is simply an interpretation, whereas Lucas' vision is authoritative.

Does that mean that Han's line in TESB where Leia says she loves him and he says "I know" is not authoritative? It was cooked up on-set between the actor and the director, with no input from Lucas.

The simple point I was trying to make was that there is a lot more creative talent behind Star Wars (regardless of which medium we're talking) than just George Lucas and it's disrespectful to those others to insinuate otherwise.

It occurs to me now that this isn't really the right thread for this stuff though, so apologies for that. I shall say no more.
Master Optician


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 27, 2011 8:44 AM   in response to: the fragrant wo... in response to: the fragrant wo...
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I do get frustrated by the attitude that George Lucas is The Creator and can do whatever he likes with Star Wars.

That "attitude" has been around, in print, for many years. At least two decades. Read this disclaimer.

I agree that much of the EU out there is freaking awesome, but it is simply an interpretation, whereas Lucas' vision is authoritative. That's how it's always been, that's how it always will be. The fact that readers have, over the years, developed the opinion that Lucas has no right to make adjustments that may affect the Expanded Universe is irrelevant.
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 27, 2011 1:16 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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"After the US broadcast of the Season 3 finale on Friday, if the Ep Guides don't have this info, I'll post here. Deal? There's something like 12 different named Trandoshans."
< Sure deal ! But we'll need a very detailed description of which Trandoshan is which B-) And also of the other characters that the Episode Guides don't have any info of (Snivvian for example.) and maybe of the Trandoshans vehicles as well?

And what are those cute creatures called, sitting near the camp of the Padawans? :)

Oh and BTW, has any vehicle or ship received a class in Season Three already?

Edited by: Sompeetalay on Mar 27, 2011 2:17 AM

Edited by: Sompeetalay on Mar 27, 2011 2:20 AM
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 26, 2011 8:51 PM   in response to: Rancor_Orga in response to: Rancor_Orga
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That was brought up when the episode aired, and while they confirmed that the show was canonically the first time the characters in TCW froze themselves, they haven't provided an explanation for Shipyards of Doom. Presumably, it just takes place after the episodes.
Rancor_Orga

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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 26, 2011 8:34 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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I may be late for the party but....

How can Shipyards of Doom remain canon if The Citadel did the carbon freezing trick for the first time... Man, I wish there was a simple solution... Um, make a story where a Separatist mind eraser weapon that erases certain parts of your memory and the Shipyards of Doom incident was erased? Thats the best I got. I hope Mr. Chee or someone thinks of something.
master_Lo


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 26, 2011 1:49 PM   in response to: the fragrant wo... in response to: the fragrant wo...
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the fragrant wookiee wrote:
Whilst I entirely agree (in fact, I myself opted out of Star Wars for the past two years over 'The Clone Wars' and am only now just returning to the fold - roll on 'The Old Republic'!), I do get frustrated by the attitude that George Lucas is The Creator and can do whatever he likes with Star Wars.
Whilst Star Wars owes the core of its themes and broad storyline to Lucas, more (and frankly better) creative work has been done by other people over the last three decades than by Lucas himself.
For instance, TESB is widely considered to be the best Star Wars film and yet is the one that Lucas had least creative input into.
The attitude that the EU is one step above fanfiction is disrespectful not so much to the fans (although to be honest I'm one of the ones who gets all angry!) but to the other writers who've worked in the EU over the years. Let's not forget that without Tom Veitch's 'Dark Empire' and Tim Zahn's Thrawn novels, Star Wars may never have recovered from its fade from prominence in the later 80s/early 90s (I was there man! I remember taking my Kenner figures to a jumble sale!).

Spot on!
Leland Y Chee


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 26, 2011 12:20 PM   in response to: Sompeetalay in response to: Sompeetalay
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After the US broadcast of the Season 3 finale on Friday, if the Ep Guides don't have this info, I'll post here. Deal? There's something like 12 different named Trandoshans.
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 26, 2011 11:08 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Any confirmations about these characters?
  • Garnac (the Trandoshan leader?)
  • Lagon, another Trandoshan, but which one ...

  • Ratter
  • Katt Mol
  • Clutch
  • Sochek
  • Goron
the fragrant wo...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 24, 2011 6:09 AM   in response to: mason_1701 in response to: mason_1701
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Whilst I entirely agree (in fact, I myself opted out of Star Wars for the past two years over 'The Clone Wars' and am only now just returning to the fold - roll on 'The Old Republic'!), I do get frustrated by the attitude that George Lucas is The Creator and can do whatever he likes with Star Wars.
Whilst Star Wars owes the core of its themes and broad storyline to Lucas, more (and frankly better) creative work has been done by other people over the last three decades than by Lucas himself.
For instance, TESB is widely considered to be the best Star Wars film and yet is the one that Lucas had least creative input into.
The attitude that the EU is one step above fanfiction is disrespectful not so much to the fans (although to be honest I'm one of the ones who gets all angry!) but to the other writers who've worked in the EU over the years. Let's not forget that without Tom Veitch's 'Dark Empire' and Tim Zahn's Thrawn novels, Star Wars may never have recovered from its fade from prominence in the later 80s/early 90s (I was there man! I remember taking my Kenner figures to a jumble sale!).
mason_1701


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 24, 2011 5:03 AM   in response to: Merryman-Lyon in response to: Merryman-Lyon
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Merryman-Lyon wrote:
I think EU fans (myself included) deserve a healthy slap in the face sometimes. Respect from LFL and GL? I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic.

QFT.

We fans sometimes get a completely incorrect sense of entitlement. LFL puts out great stories, and as a result we choose to buy them. If some fans believe that the quality has decreased to below their standards (which is possible and fair), then the best thing to do is NOT BUY THE PRODUCT. LFL does not force anyone to buy anything, or watch their movies or TV shows. The single best way to protest bad Star Wars is not to consume bad Star Wars.

I personally enjoy everything that is produced, and I like the challenge of the occasional retcon. Ergo, I consume Star Wars. Should I change my mind, I am within my rights to cease consuming Star Wars.

And really, if GL wanted to, he could just as easily stop ever producing Star Wars ever again. He could liquidate all of his companies and properties and live comfortably for the rest of his life. He chooses to continue providing us with stories. And that's awesome.


Check out my new Column "The Star Wars Dissection" at www.eucantina.net!
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 23, 2011 11:24 PM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
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SlaveoftheForce wrote:
Just a heads up. There is a petition in the works calling upon LFL and GL to give EU and EU fans the respect we deserve.

More to come.


Definitely the wrong approach. Even if the abstract body of works that is the Expanded Universe and the people who read it do "deserve" for certain things not to happen in the show, which is debatable to say the least, saying HOW DARE YOU isn't going to change anyone's mind. Maybe something along the lines of "please give us a break once in a while"?
Jedi Master Eri...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 23, 2011 3:16 PM   in response to: Merryman-Lyon in response to: Merryman-Lyon
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Merryman-Lyon wrote:I think EU fans (myself included) deserve a healthy slap in the face sometimes. Respect from LFL and GL? I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic.
I'm going to pray that that's the case. And I am not a praying man.


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Merryman-Lyon


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 23, 2011 3:10 PM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
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I think EU fans (myself included) deserve a healthy slap in the face sometimes. Respect from LFL and GL? I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic.
Master Optician


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 23, 2011 2:39 PM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
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That's hilarious.

*edit Even the forum thought so. A double post.
Master Optician


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 23, 2011 2:39 PM   in response to: SlaveoftheForce in response to: SlaveoftheForce
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That's hilarious.
SlaveoftheForce


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 23, 2011 2:20 PM   in response to: Bri-Jay Waycay in response to: Bri-Jay Waycay
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Just a heads up. There is a petition in the works calling upon LFL and GL to give EU and EU fans the respect we deserve.

More to come.
Bri-Jay Waycay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 21, 2011 1:29 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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DarthMRN wrote:
It changed my perception, and I was for a while tempted to throw the EU away as glorified fan fiction. Only one thing stopped me. One thing: An obscure throwaway Leland post from years back, where he mentioned as part of a different point, that a tiny retcon existed somewhere solely to clear up an equally tiny error in an RPG supplement. To me that small fact held the promise that all errors, no matter how small, will sooner or later be caught and rectonned. It brought the promise of the holy land, that everything has the potential to be 100% coherent, and there are efforts made to make it so. Even if new errors are introduced along with the retcons, I believe I can at any point in time stop and say: Every error currently in existence will be cleared up eventually, no matter how small.

I really appreciate people like Leland for the effort they make, but it's just not enough for me. Their work just cannot undo the sheer volume of grievances placed upon me as a fan and customer. It's like a company ran by leaders who treat their customers like crap, only they have great customer support. There's only so many times you can keep going back to customer support before you abandon the company altogether.

I've thought about Leland's job and I both pity and envy him.

Fixing continuity and coming up with retcons seems like a fun job to a Star Wars fan, but he's like Sisyphus, forever pushing a boulder up a hill only to have others kick it back down to the bottom.

I wonder if the labor is worth it knowing the task will never be completed and the product will never be close to perfect.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 21, 2011 11:28 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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it used to seem that contradictions stemming from the movies were somewhat temporary, and didn't really represent the long-term strategy for Lucasfilm, but TCW really showed that they had no intent of stopping.

Good work yourself. The above is the summary I felt I was missing from that post. Pre-TCW the perception was one of a temporary crisis, rather than a long-term strategy. The first one can live with, the other not so much.

Incidentally, do you have the link (in old-to-new post thread format) to that obscure post that gives you hope?

http://forums.s tarwars.com/thread.jspa?messageID=7329303
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Mar 21, 2011 11:03 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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Any chance you could confirm who these characters are in 'Padawan Lost'?

  • Lo-Taren
  • Garnac
  • Ratter
  • Katt Mol
  • Lagon

Thanks !

PS: Thx for explaing the Ewok-issue

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