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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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ulic_g99


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 4:22 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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I suspect though that if they did another reprint edition of the older Clone Wars materials, they would be able to change and update the timelines given at the front of the books without too much trouble.

Heh, who knows, the books with older obsolete timelines might become sought after collectors items...
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 12:49 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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It all goes back to the comments Leland has made constantly about issues being dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

If a novelization has G-Canon elements from Lucas, and some C-Canon elements from the writer, but then those C-Canon elements (or sometimes even G-Canon as in the case of Boba Fett, but that's a whole different issue) contradict other C-Canon elements, they are dealt with on a case-by-case basis. If something is contradictory in the original novelizations, in most cases, they have been dealt with by now in the form of retcons.

Again, it's impractical to reprint all of these materials in edited, retconned form, so it is our responsibility as readers to recognize those retcons and take them into account while reading and trying to understand it all.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 11:01 AM   in response to: ulic_g99 in response to: ulic_g99
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I am fairly indifferent to whether they are C, T or G. I just wanna make sure they are not S. Having read one of the old copies, with its references to President of the Senate and whatnot, the old novels would be what I understand as "older stuff that may or may not fit".

That is why I asked about any changes to them for the Trilogy edition. If they were updated in line with modern continuity, there shouldn't be an issue, and I guess they would be C with numerous G elements in them. But if they are mere reprints, without also being designated S, I'm seeing a problem...
ulic_g99


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 9:37 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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The movie novelisations for Episodes I-VI are indeed G-canon; however, the new Clone Wars movie is not G-canon but T-canon (as per page 118 of this thread, seventh post). In that regard, the Clone Wars movie novelisations could be T-canon if they follow the same pattern as the G-canon movie novelisations - Mr. Chee will have to confirm that though.

EDIT: Darn, Nathan beat me to it - that'll teach me to write these posts slowly while doing other things!
grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 9:33 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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*You're missing the point. If the date of the item is changed, then the in-universe date is changed as well. Would we see it changed? No, because it has already been printed. But we are to assume that the date in-universe has changed, so your in-universe Rodian would open up that issue of HoloNet News and not see 14:2:12. Instead, he would open it up and see the new, retconned, compressed date.*

Merely hours ago, I found that way of reasoning a little hard to believe. But for now, I am content. It seems to be the only way to eliminate as much trouble as possible. I don't know, it could work...
Thank you, Nathan, for your quick replies and opinions. :)
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 9:30 AM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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*was always under the impression (I could be wrong) that all the movie novelisations were G-canon.
If that's the case, and 'The Clone Wars' movie is also G-canon, then is 'The Clone Wars' novelisation also G-canon?
Which would make a lot of the EU stuff that KT stuck in there G-canon too, right? *

Remember, it's not by story anymore, it's by element. If a fruit is created by Lucas for AOTC, but then the name of the fruit is created by another author, without Lucas' input, then the existence of the fruit is G-Canon and the name of the fruit is C-Canon. It isn't whole stories anymore once you really get down to it.

In that sense, the novelizations, radio dramas, etc. that are based on Lucas' vision are G-Canon only in the sense that they are expressing his creations. That which does not, which is simply added in by an EU writer, is C-Canon. We refer to novelizations as G-Canon often because they are mostly G-Canon, but the Holocron database is much more specific than the story-by-story list that used to make such distinctions over a decade ago.

As for The Clone Wars, as you may recall, The Clone Wars is not G-Canon, nor C-Canon. It is the first item to be produced in the new T-Canon level. In theory, that means that whatever Traviss included that is from the actual T-Canon source material would be T-Canon, but anything she added herself to her adaptation of the T-Canon source would be C-Canon . . . and that would include the EU references.

Even then, even if we were to incorrectly assume the EU references that are C-Canon instead of T-Canon, the fact that something is referenced does not bring all material from that reference into another level. For example, Obi-Wan discusses Saleucami and Boz Pity conflicts in ROTS, which is G-Canon. That does not move the events of Obsession or Siege at Saleucami into G-Canon from C-Canon. It just codifies that the planet names themselves are G-Canon.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 9:24 AM   in response to: grobiano in response to: grobiano
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Now, let's say the Rodian is reading the issue from 14:2:12. He's informed that the incident in the Taldot sector ended "today." It would make no sense if this event was compressed along with the rest of the timeline, since the Rodian then would read that the incident ended today, when it "actually" ended days/weeks/months earlier. If the Star Wars newsnet can't keep track of the dates of the battles in an intergalactic war... well, that makes no sense. See what I mean?

You're missing the point. If the date of the item is changed, then the in-universe date is changed as well. Would we see it changed? No, because it has already been printed. But we are to assume that the date in-universe has changed, so your in-universe Rodian would open up that issue of HoloNet News and not see 14:2:12. Instead, he would open it up and see the new, retconned, compressed date.

It's the same as if, let's say, Anakin refers back to something that happened two years ago, but then the stories get compressed so that the gap between the event and his recollection of it are compressed into, say, one year, instead of two. The assumption becomes that since the change to the dates came after the source material was written, that Anakin, in-universe, would not actually have been saying "two years ago," he would've said "a year ago." We assume that relative date references, even ones that are very specific, are altered along with everything else when retcons are entered.

You are somehow assuming that since HNN puts dates in numbers in-universe, rather than direct quotes from characters in-universe, that somehow HNN is a special case. It's not. Its in-universe references to time would shift, the same way as spoken date references would.
the fragrant wo...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 2:52 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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I was always under the impression (I could be wrong) that all the movie novelisations were G-canon.
If that's the case, and 'The Clone Wars' movie is also G-canon, then is 'The Clone Wars' novelisation also G-canon?
Which would make a lot of the EU stuff that KT stuck in there G-canon too, right?
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 2:14 AM   in response to: grobiano in response to: grobiano
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Leland:

What is the canon level of the OT novelizations? Say the latest version (presumably the Star Wars Trilogy three-in-one)? Also, were there changes done to this updated version to make it more in line with the 25. anniversary state of continuity?
grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 1:52 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Now, let's say the Rodian is reading the issue from 14:2:12. He's informed that the incident in the Taldot sector ended "today." It would make no sense if this event was compressed along with the rest of the timeline, since the Rodian then would read that the incident ended today, when it "actually" ended days/weeks/months earlier. If the Star Wars newsnet can't keep track of the dates of the battles in an intergalactic war... well, that makes no sense. See what I mean?
grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 1:51 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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If Story #1 is one year after AOTC, then story #2 is 1.5 years after AOTC, and those get compressed into, say, a six month time span, then you'd have Story #1, then Story #2, with their time span squished, but their relative order the same.

Yes, I am aware of that. I feel that you are missing my point.
I'll try to explain: I have an HNN article. The article is in-universe, meaning that it exists in its exact form both in my universe and in the Star Wars galaxy. Some Rodian might have turned on his HoloNet transceiver and got the exactly same article, issue etc. that I did. The article "existed" in Star Wars, just as the NEC did (though no doubt the NEC would be much easier to retcon).

cont.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 5:44 PM   in response to: Sompeetalay in response to: Sompeetalay
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*Nathan, I have the greatest respect for what you are doing and trying to do, but isn't the SW universe getting too big to fit everything into one single chronology? It's expanding and expanding and it will always be. I think that someday there will even be more stories than time :) *

At this point, honestly, if it weren't so confusing to many less informed fans, I would certainly have loved to have seen a continuity that includes G-Canon and C-Canon without T-Canon, then another that includes G-Canon and T-Canon without C-Canon. Alas, that's not what we have.

It all goes back to what I've said for years regarding SW canon: It is not our job to decide what various levels of canon will be, nor what will or won't be considered in-continuity. It is our job, if we are being intellectually honest, to simply recognize what the official word is on the subject, and respect that.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 5:41 PM   in response to: grobiano in response to: grobiano
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*Alas, the HNN can not be fitted into a compressed timeline. It has a fixed date. The incident in the Taldot sector (ie. the Battle of Balamak), for example, must have happened on 14:2:12.
This, of course, could be retconned, and the CW timeline could be compressed yet still continuous. *

Uhm . . . the "fixed date" issue does not apply to anything in the compression. That's the point. Events were fixed at one month, one week, one year, one day, etc. after AOTC. Knowing the approximate date (at least the year and month) of AOTC or ROTS (at least to the week), we can pretty well narrow down the day (or a very narrow range of days) of the month, for almost every single story between AOTC and ROTS.

Thus, when compression happens, the events still exist, and just as we have to tweak the dates on the other items, wherein we knew dates but didn't have them appearing all nice and written out, we tweak the HNN dates as well.

If Story #1 is one year after AOTC, then story #2 is 1.5 years after AOTC, and those get compressed into, say, a six month time span, then you'd have Story #1, then Story #2, with their time span squished, but their relative order the same. If those two stories now have new dates, and there were originally HNN articles that take place between them, then, okay, they stay between, but they have to adjust their dates just like everything else.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 5:36 PM   in response to: grobiano in response to: grobiano
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Not because it is more important or official than any other source, but because it is written from an "in-universe" perspective. In the Star Wars universe, the NEC is written by Voren Na'al, Archivist Emeritus of the Historical Council of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. See what I mean? That work is a piece of continuity in itself. If the timeline is compressed, then (nearly) all of Na'al's data and research would be erroneous. We would then need a retcon for why the poor historian got his work messed up so badly.

Not necessarily.

Consider: Let's say that in a story set in the year of ANH, someone refers back to the events of something set between AOTC and ROTS. Let's say they're referring to Anakin's knighting after Jedi Trial, since that's an easy date to remember (2.5 years after AOTC). Ignoring the difference in the months of AOTC and ROTS (month 5) versus ANH (month 3), let's say that someone says "Yeah, Vader became a Jedi Knight officially nineteen and a half years ago."

If that knighting is shifted back to more like 0.5 years after Geonosis, then he SHOULD have said "Yeah, Vader became a Jedi Knight officially twenty-one and a half years ago." Do we retcon that date? Not overtly.

We mentally fix the date because we know that the date has changed but the writer of the original material didn't. Whether you let that mental fix be that someone is mistaken, or the "historical record" that the writer wrote is mistaken, or perhaps you just replace the numbers in your head with the correct ones as you read. Either way, there's no need (nor would there ever be time) to fix every single in-continuity date reference. Once an event is moved, the rest just comes naturally as a byproduct.

With the NEC, frankly, we don't even need to do that. The NEC itself, in its explanation of how it has grown since the EC, provides its own explanation, wherein it writes off inaccuracies of the EC as being based on new research, new information, etc. Such could certainly be said for what has been "researched" since the NEC was "released" after the Dark Nest Trilogy.
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 3:14 PM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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Nathan, I have the greatest respect for what you are doing and trying to do, but isn't the SW universe getting too big to fit everything into one single chronology? It's expanding and expanding and it will always be. I think that someday there will even be more stories than time :)
grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 2:18 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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The same goes for the HoloNet News. If I am reading the issue from 14:2:12 and see that "[t]ransmission networks resumed functioning today in the Taldot sector..." (see Insider #65), then I am inclined to believe that the network's functionality was indeed restored on 14:2:12. (Note that this article also refers to Anakin as Obi-Wan's "apprentice," even though he should, according to the 3D film and TV series, be a Knight at the time.) My point is: The people in the Star Wars galaxy got exactly the same article as I did. If the timeline was compressed, we would end up with an in-universe, official HNN issue which states that something that happened way earlier actually happened "today."
Alas, the HNN can not be fitted into a compressed timeline. It has a fixed date. The incident in the Taldot sector (ie. the Battle of Balamak), for example, must have happened on 14:2:12.
This, of course, could be retconned, and the CW timeline could be compressed yet still continuous.
grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 2:08 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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As for the NEC and other guides, we have seen plenty of in-universe comments about dates changed to fit new retcons, such as, for example, Timothy Zahn's dates for Clone Wars events in the original Thrawn Trilogy. Why would you expect the NEC to be treated any differently than any other EU material?

Not because it is more important or official than any other source, but because it is written from an "in-universe" perspective. In the Star Wars universe, the NEC is written by Voren Na'al, Archivist Emeritus of the Historical Council of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. See what I mean? That work is a piece of continuity in itself. If the timeline is compressed, then (nearly) all of Na'al's data and research would be erroneous. We would then need a retcon for why the poor historian got his work messed up so badly.
hero_of_the_emp...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 1:38 PM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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You have a talent, my friend.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 12:00 PM   in response to: the fragrant wo... in response to: the fragrant wo...
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Does anyone else find it incredibly amusing that of all people, I end up playing the voice of reason?

O_o
the fragrant wo...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 11:55 AM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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(EDIT)

Never mind.

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