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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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AdmirableAckbar


Posts: 20
Registered: 06/17/07
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 14, 2008 10:26 AM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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Tasty:

In the case of Tales of the Jedi and Dark Empire, would the original comics supersede the audio dramas if there was a direct contradiction, or would things be dealt with on a case-by-case basis?

Thanks.
Nathan P. Butler


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Registered: 10/11/01
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 12, 2008 11:50 AM   in response to: Lord Hydronium in response to: Lord Hydronium
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Interesting.

You'd think it would've been caught in editing . . .

But, hey, we have an answer, so that works. :)
Lord Hydronium


Posts: 33
Registered: 12/25/03
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 12, 2008 11:41 AM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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According to Michael Reaves in on TheForce.Net, the health problems he's been having led to a few understandable slip-ups. So they're just mistakes, not a time jump or rearranging of the timeline.
Nathan P. Butler


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Registered: 10/11/01
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 12, 2008 9:16 AM   in response to: AtomFox in response to: AtomFox
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Hmm . . .

Okay, I have some Street of Shadows confusion, though nothing that would be considered spoilers, I don't believe.

1. When making references to Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker, the first and most of the second book in this series make it clear (I think) that Jax has no idea that Anakin went on to become Vader. None of his companions know this either. However, on p. 117, the "narrator" (from the perspective of our heroes) makes mention of Anakin's "one-man pogrom" during Order 66. Is this an error, or one of those few times when the narration, despite having a specific point of view, was allowed to stretch beyond the character's knowledge? It just seems jarring.

2. References to "Flame Night" were a bit unclear in the first book, but based on the second, we have to assume that it is within the first month or two after ROTS, correct? (It has to be a bit before the first book, yet after Order 66.)

3. This one feels just . . . sloppy. I'm not entirely even sure what to make of it . . .

Street of Shadows is set a few months (which they say repeatedly without pinning down a number) after Jedi Twilight, which was, itself, within the first few months after ROTS.

On p. 90, Rhinnan is considering a transmission from Drongar during "the waning years of the Clone Wars." (Given the transmission, it's dating back to the Medstar books, it seems.) However, the transmission is repeatedly said to have been about TWENTY years old, hence some degradation. It is as if this entirely little few page section has somehow leaped ahead nearly two decades in perspective, when, obviously, it is not meant to do so.

Is there something I'm reading wrong? Am I missing some contextual comment that makes those twenty year references make sense somehow?
AtomFox

Posts: 8
Registered: 08/27/08
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 4:33 PM   in response to: Rancor_Orga in response to: Rancor_Orga
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Just read the article in "Wired," Great to see you getting some attention, Mr. Chee.
Rancor_Orga

Posts: 52
Registered: 03/30/05
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 4:05 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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TastyTaste,
In the Toys "R" Us comic Practice Makes Perfect, it shows Plo Koon without his mask. Is that depiction considered canon?
DarthMRN


Posts: 2,355
Registered: 11/14/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 3:41 PM   in response to: Captain Yossarian in response to: Captain Yossarian
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Agreed. There should be as few as possible, and retcons should be made when possible. But since we don't live in an ideal world, it may still find use in certain cases.

Heck, GL steamrolling the EU is a great example of this. If material that was meant to be C-canon simply cannot be reconciled with Lucas' vision as it reveals itself, it would undoubtably be better to make it S than to have to boot the thing as non-continiuity in its entirety.

With The Clone Wars on the door, I'm guessing we are going to be treated to at least a few such cases. And then with the Live Action series down the line, all the while EU creators are finally allowed to explore the pre-ANH timeframe, it will likely be even more. The perfect backdrop for a S-canon renaissance.
Captain Yossarian


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Registered: 01/16/02
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 1:24 PM   in response to: lukevanhorn in response to: lukevanhorn
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Whilst there could still be S-canon material made, surely it has been the policy in recent years to treat everything official as canon and try and make it fit together (even if that is difficult). So newer material is treated as C-canon because it has gone through a process of continuity checking as it was being made so it can fit into established continuity. Even so, there are sometimes contradictions which may require retcons or alterations.

So there should be little new official material that is S-canon, unless it was specifically made to be less than C-canon to get around the restrictions of continuity. Therefore most S-canon is old stories that do not fit with everything else, yet may have some referenceable elements in them. When they were written, EU was not subject to the same continuity and thus they now find themselves as S-canon. But I think the point is that there shouldn't be much new stuff labelled as S-canon because those in charge want it to fit together right from the beginning and not have stories going into various levels of canonicity which may confuse readers who do not know what is the 'real' story concerning the characters involved.
lukevanhorn


Posts: 680
Registered: 05/21/07
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 10:06 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Will there never again be a source that doesn't fit
right but includes exciting referencable stuff
nonetheless? That seems unlikely.

It seems like Tokyopop's Star Wars Manga Black and Star Wars Manga Silver have so far been treated like they're S-canon.
DarthMRN


Posts: 2,355
Registered: 11/14/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 8:54 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Not to mention Drew's treatment of Jedi vs Sith in PoD. Based on actions alone, JvS might as well have been S, for that is how it has been treated.

And the +Clone Wars Microseries+! Its conflict with Labyrinth of Evil and gross and unexplained overpoweredness would make it the perfect S candidate.

What is the point of having S around if you can't use it to fix problems like these?
DarthMRN


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Registered: 11/14/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 8:33 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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Battlefront 1 has a S-canon story, which suggests that even newer material may be S if circumstances are right.

And a few newer comics were ommitted from the timeline presented in Star Wars: The Comics Companion, in stead relegated to the section of the book where Marvel, Tales and Manga is found. While that isn't in any way definite, it suggests that the Holocron may yet have found other uses for S than has been revealed to the public.

And I think that is a good idea. What possible purpose could it serve that S was for old stuff only? Will there never again be a source that doesn't fit right but includes exciting referencable stuff nonetheless? That seems unlikely.
jSarek


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Registered: 12/17/03
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 8, 2008 9:31 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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No, but he HAS clearly stated that nothing created since the implementation of the Holocron is S-canon, and has clearly defined G, T, and N canon in such a way that they clearly don't include articles written by non-Lucas authors. It's not conjecture so much as process of elimination.
DarthMRN


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Registered: 11/14/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 8, 2008 8:48 AM   in response to: Lord Hydronium in response to: Lord Hydronium
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Well, to be fair, the hallmark Leland post where he revealed what elements of the EU are C-canon didn't include articles as one of them. He did say pretty much anything, but barring some evidence I'm not aware of it is fan conjecture -albeit reasonable conjecture- that articles are C.
Lord Hydronium


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Registered: 12/25/03
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 8, 2008 1:14 AM   in response to: Mira Lodo in response to: Mira Lodo
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Nonetheless, that's not the stated continuity position of LFL. If this has changed, I think the fans who appreciate the hard work put in by those like Abel Peña on such articles would like to know if it's now being discounted. As one of them myself, I know I would.
Mira Lodo


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 7, 2008 7:45 PM   in response to: Rogue_Follower in response to: Rogue_Follower
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Hydronium, Rogue,

I can only say that since the novels and comics themselves are currently being overwritten and re-defined, surely you don't think that the relatively minor continuity articles in magazines or on the web are in any way sacrosanct.
Nathan P. Butler


Posts: 4,653
Registered: 10/11/01
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 7, 2008 8:56 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Actually . . . there is an answer as to how Anakin can do it. It's in the new Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi. So, that knocks out THAT part of my question . . .
DarthMRN


Posts: 2,355
Registered: 11/14/04
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 6, 2008 4:06 PM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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1. Is there an official explanation as to how Anakin was able to do the "Force Ghost Thing" when he was not taught such a skill by Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan?

You sure are an optimist, Nathan...
Rogue_Follower


Posts: 127
Registered: 12/06/01
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 6, 2008 3:45 PM   in response to: Mira Lodo in response to: Mira Lodo
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Mira:

Well, Star Wars supposedly has a monolithic canon, which means that just about everything is a part of the continuity, including articles. Also, not all of Fenn Shysa's backstory came from the History of the Mandalorians article. It first originated in the Marvel comics. So it's not like this only involves a magazine article.

EDIT: Also, as Hydronium says, articles and novels had previously been considered of equal importance, continuity-wise. At least, that was how I understood it.
Lord Hydronium


Posts: 33
Registered: 12/25/03
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 6, 2008 3:42 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Everything that's canon besides movies and The Clone Wars (which is an exception because of Lucas' involvement, and not the standard) is equally canon. Insider articles are of equal importance in canon as novels.

This has been the rule so far. This is why I'm curious if something's changed, since for the most part we simply don't see overwriting of this sort, unless it stems from a project Lucas has worked on (which obviously doesn't apply here).
Mira Lodo


Posts: 2,100
Registered: 10/18/01
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Sep 6, 2008 3:28 PM   in response to: Lord Hydronium in response to: Lord Hydronium
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Continuity gets overwritten all the time, as evidenced by the recent re-shaping of the history of the Clone Wars. I'm rather looking forward to seeing how Karen Traviss has done this, considering the fact that she has more or less taken on the Mandalorian gauntlets herself. I've always understood that the online articles, etc. are meant to be explanatory notes to tide over readers who have felt that there were questions left unanswered, not continuity bibles for the authors.

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