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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 2, 2008 1:51 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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If Story #1 is one year after AOTC, then story #2 is 1.5 years after AOTC, and those get compressed into, say, a six month time span, then you'd have Story #1, then Story #2, with their time span squished, but their relative order the same.

Yes, I am aware of that. I feel that you are missing my point.
I'll try to explain: I have an HNN article. The article is in-universe, meaning that it exists in its exact form both in my universe and in the Star Wars galaxy. Some Rodian might have turned on his HoloNet transceiver and got the exactly same article, issue etc. that I did. The article "existed" in Star Wars, just as the NEC did (though no doubt the NEC would be much easier to retcon).

cont.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 5:44 PM   in response to: Sompeetalay in response to: Sompeetalay
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*Nathan, I have the greatest respect for what you are doing and trying to do, but isn't the SW universe getting too big to fit everything into one single chronology? It's expanding and expanding and it will always be. I think that someday there will even be more stories than time :) *

At this point, honestly, if it weren't so confusing to many less informed fans, I would certainly have loved to have seen a continuity that includes G-Canon and C-Canon without T-Canon, then another that includes G-Canon and T-Canon without C-Canon. Alas, that's not what we have.

It all goes back to what I've said for years regarding SW canon: It is not our job to decide what various levels of canon will be, nor what will or won't be considered in-continuity. It is our job, if we are being intellectually honest, to simply recognize what the official word is on the subject, and respect that.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 5:41 PM   in response to: grobiano in response to: grobiano
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*Alas, the HNN can not be fitted into a compressed timeline. It has a fixed date. The incident in the Taldot sector (ie. the Battle of Balamak), for example, must have happened on 14:2:12.
This, of course, could be retconned, and the CW timeline could be compressed yet still continuous. *

Uhm . . . the "fixed date" issue does not apply to anything in the compression. That's the point. Events were fixed at one month, one week, one year, one day, etc. after AOTC. Knowing the approximate date (at least the year and month) of AOTC or ROTS (at least to the week), we can pretty well narrow down the day (or a very narrow range of days) of the month, for almost every single story between AOTC and ROTS.

Thus, when compression happens, the events still exist, and just as we have to tweak the dates on the other items, wherein we knew dates but didn't have them appearing all nice and written out, we tweak the HNN dates as well.

If Story #1 is one year after AOTC, then story #2 is 1.5 years after AOTC, and those get compressed into, say, a six month time span, then you'd have Story #1, then Story #2, with their time span squished, but their relative order the same. If those two stories now have new dates, and there were originally HNN articles that take place between them, then, okay, they stay between, but they have to adjust their dates just like everything else.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 5:36 PM   in response to: grobiano in response to: grobiano
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Not because it is more important or official than any other source, but because it is written from an "in-universe" perspective. In the Star Wars universe, the NEC is written by Voren Na'al, Archivist Emeritus of the Historical Council of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. See what I mean? That work is a piece of continuity in itself. If the timeline is compressed, then (nearly) all of Na'al's data and research would be erroneous. We would then need a retcon for why the poor historian got his work messed up so badly.

Not necessarily.

Consider: Let's say that in a story set in the year of ANH, someone refers back to the events of something set between AOTC and ROTS. Let's say they're referring to Anakin's knighting after Jedi Trial, since that's an easy date to remember (2.5 years after AOTC). Ignoring the difference in the months of AOTC and ROTS (month 5) versus ANH (month 3), let's say that someone says "Yeah, Vader became a Jedi Knight officially nineteen and a half years ago."

If that knighting is shifted back to more like 0.5 years after Geonosis, then he SHOULD have said "Yeah, Vader became a Jedi Knight officially twenty-one and a half years ago." Do we retcon that date? Not overtly.

We mentally fix the date because we know that the date has changed but the writer of the original material didn't. Whether you let that mental fix be that someone is mistaken, or the "historical record" that the writer wrote is mistaken, or perhaps you just replace the numbers in your head with the correct ones as you read. Either way, there's no need (nor would there ever be time) to fix every single in-continuity date reference. Once an event is moved, the rest just comes naturally as a byproduct.

With the NEC, frankly, we don't even need to do that. The NEC itself, in its explanation of how it has grown since the EC, provides its own explanation, wherein it writes off inaccuracies of the EC as being based on new research, new information, etc. Such could certainly be said for what has been "researched" since the NEC was "released" after the Dark Nest Trilogy.
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 3:14 PM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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Nathan, I have the greatest respect for what you are doing and trying to do, but isn't the SW universe getting too big to fit everything into one single chronology? It's expanding and expanding and it will always be. I think that someday there will even be more stories than time :)
grobiano


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Registered: 08/19/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 2:18 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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The same goes for the HoloNet News. If I am reading the issue from 14:2:12 and see that "[t]ransmission networks resumed functioning today in the Taldot sector..." (see Insider #65), then I am inclined to believe that the network's functionality was indeed restored on 14:2:12. (Note that this article also refers to Anakin as Obi-Wan's "apprentice," even though he should, according to the 3D film and TV series, be a Knight at the time.) My point is: The people in the Star Wars galaxy got exactly the same article as I did. If the timeline was compressed, we would end up with an in-universe, official HNN issue which states that something that happened way earlier actually happened "today."
Alas, the HNN can not be fitted into a compressed timeline. It has a fixed date. The incident in the Taldot sector (ie. the Battle of Balamak), for example, must have happened on 14:2:12.
This, of course, could be retconned, and the CW timeline could be compressed yet still continuous.
grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 2:08 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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As for the NEC and other guides, we have seen plenty of in-universe comments about dates changed to fit new retcons, such as, for example, Timothy Zahn's dates for Clone Wars events in the original Thrawn Trilogy. Why would you expect the NEC to be treated any differently than any other EU material?

Not because it is more important or official than any other source, but because it is written from an "in-universe" perspective. In the Star Wars universe, the NEC is written by Voren Na'al, Archivist Emeritus of the Historical Council of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. See what I mean? That work is a piece of continuity in itself. If the timeline is compressed, then (nearly) all of Na'al's data and research would be erroneous. We would then need a retcon for why the poor historian got his work messed up so badly.
hero_of_the_emp...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 1:38 PM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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You have a talent, my friend.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 12:00 PM   in response to: the fragrant wo... in response to: the fragrant wo...
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Does anyone else find it incredibly amusing that of all people, I end up playing the voice of reason?

O_o
the fragrant wo...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 11:55 AM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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(EDIT)

Never mind.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 8:16 AM   in response to: the fragrant wo... in response to: the fragrant wo...
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Given that Barriss Offee and other characters do end up showing up in some other stories, though not many, I would imagine that it would be all stories being compressed. That would make the most sense, since so many characters crossover and events are mentioned in other sources.
the fragrant wo...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 6:46 AM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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Well, I guess it begs the question then; will everything in the timeline get compressed?

If the order in which things happened is more important than when they happened, does that apply across the board or only to Anakin/Obi-Wan-specific stories?

What I'm getting at is that, for example, the MedStar duology comes before 'Jedi Trial' and doesn't use the same characters. So is it more important that MedStar comes before 'Jedi Trial' or is it more important that MedStar is supposed to be 2 years into the Clone Wars?
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 5:53 AM   in response to: grobiano in response to: grobiano
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Oh, and Insider's HoloNet News! They are written from an in-universe perspective, often with exact dates, and must at least remain un-altered.

Almost all of the prior Clone Wars materials were given exact dates of one kind or another. I would imagine that HoloNet News would be no different in how it is treated, i.e. compressed down with its relative dating the same (what it comes before or after), but its numerical dating changed.

As for Anakin's knighting, that has already been retconned, putting that scene from the earlier series right around the time of Jedi Trial. If things are simply to be compressed, then it would make sense that it would be compressed with it.

As for the NEC and other guides, we have seen plenty of in-universe comments about dates changed to fit new retcons, such as, for example, Timothy Zahn's dates for Clone Wars events in the original Thrawn Trilogy. Why would you expect the NEC to be treated any differently than any other EU material?

It seems like people are making this idea of a compression much more complicated than it actually is.

Consider: You plan to wake up at 9:00, then go to the dentist by 10:00, the grocery store by noon, pick up a new Star Wars novel (naturally) by 3:00 p.m., run some other errands, then head home by 5:00 or so. Then you find out that an old friend will be in town and intends to drop by your home around 3:00 p.m. Uh-oh! So you compress the time you have for what you need to do. You still wake up, go to the dentist, go to the grocery store, pick up the novel, run those errands, and head home, but now instead of having until 5:00 to do this, you have until 3:00. You don't change the order in which you do things; you simply do them faster or more efficiently so that you can do them in a shorter time span. That's all that compression has to entail. It can be more complicated, but at its core, that's what compression is, by definition. You just . . . compress. You squeeze. You squish. You don't necessarily rearrange, even though you certainly could if it were necessary.
grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 4:17 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Oh, and Insider's HoloNet News! They are written from an in-universe perspective, often with exact dates, and must at least remain un-altered.
grobiano


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 3:12 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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George Lucas has referred to the animated micro-series as the "pilot series" for this 3D generated film and series, right? It has been said that the new series will not supercede the original one in continuity, but rather expand upon it. (Seemingly without regard to other CW sources, but that's just the way it is.) So, the problem here is: In the original Clone Wars series, in Chapter 21, we can see Ki-Adi-Mundi reporting to the Council his encounter with General Grievous - this occured on Hypori, 4 months ABOG. We then make a jump to Anakin's knighting ceremony - retconned to take place 30 months ABOG. Now, George was probably not aware of this "jump." He still means that Anakin was promoted 4 months after the outset of the war.
If this is the case, then the "compression" of the timeline could prove much easier - or much more difficult - than expected.
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 3:01 AM   in response to: Sompeetalay in response to: Sompeetalay
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Wave 3:
  • 5D6-RA-7: This is a black RA-7 Droid and according to Decipher's CCG it's the personal Droid of Conan Antonio Motti. But according to the Action Figure Archive, the black Death Star Droid that walks past the heroes and Chewbacca as their prisoner at the Death Star I is called 5DK-RA-7. Could you please explain what Droid 5D6-RA-7 is? What is the official and correct name of the Droid we can see walking past the lift tubes aboard the Death Star I?

Wave 4:

  • MB-RA-7: The only zilver RA-7 Droid in the movies is 3B6-RA-7 (named in WTS). So basically, it can't be visible in the movies. Is this Droid a 100% creation by Hasbro?

Wave 1 2009:

  • R2-N6: An image of R2-N6 appears in the Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary but where does it appear in the movie? There is a red Droid appearing in the background of Mos Espa. Is this R2-N6?
  • R5-A2: This Droid can be seen on Mos Eisley and has been named by Decipher's CCG so no problems there.

Thank you very much !

grobiano


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Registered: 08/19/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 2:58 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Hmm... I guess it all could fit together, thanks to all the committed people involved... However, there's no doubt it would be much easier to retcon this new film and TV series, and leave the already established continuity alone. Also, what about The New Essential Chronology, which is supposed to be written from an "in-universe" perspective (and, for example, places the Battle of Praesitlyn - which takes place before Anakin's knighting - 30 months ABOG)?
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 2:54 AM   in response to: snooty30 in response to: snooty30
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I have some questions about some of Hasbro's Droids that they will be releasing as extra figures with the Legacy line. I'm wondering if you could tell me where to find some of them and who they are. Since they're lacking a proper card, I fear no info will be available on them.

Wave 1:
  • R7-Z0: EU creation - Droid cannot appear in the movies.
  • R4-D6: This is a Droid that is similar to R4-I9. Could this be the Droid that can be seen in the Massassi Great Temple Hangar?

Wave 2:
  • R7-T1: EU creation - Droid cannot appear in the movies.
  • R4-J1: Looks a little bit like R4-M9. According to the Rebellion Era Sourcebook from Wizards of the Coast this unit scours junkyards for parts. Does it appear in any movie and where can it be seen?
snooty30


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 4:50 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Then again, there's a changing hairstyle to consider....
snooty30


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 4:39 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Not sure how well this would fit in but...

Anakin is made a Knight early on in the Clone Wars but isn't Knighted (ie the ceremony) until later on due to um... "work commitments"!

Could be called Padawan by force of habit or from light hearted ribbing by Obi Wan.

The Council view would be re-enforced that he should be made a Knight by his actions in YDR.

There's prob loads of holes in this as I haven't read all the CW media and am quite vague about those I have!

Simon
"If there's one thing that doesn't change, it's the fact that there will always be change"

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