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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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TheSithEmpire


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 23, 2007 9:27 PM   in response to: TheSithEmpire in response to: TheSithEmpire
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Planets having one-shot alien species as opposed to established ones is not even remotely a contradiction. The EU has stated on numerous occassions that there are hundreds of thousands of sentient species, NOT a pre-established 20 that you happen to see in the films. If Lucas had wanted that, he'd have instructed the licensees to only use aliens from the films. And regardless of authors "trying to remind fans of the films" (which is silly IMO: movie-only fans don't know that Greedo is a Rodian anyway, so it's a wasted attempt that does little more than crowd the universe), we should expect to see new alien races all the time. This isn't your local supermarket, it's a galaxy.
TheSithEmpire


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 23, 2007 9:21 PM   in response to: PiccoloKenobi in response to: PiccoloKenobi
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DarthMRN: Han calling his hyperdrive a warp drive can be attributed to a) the fact some things have different names; b) an error on the part of the author; or c) an attribution of the medium. If we can allow for the Clone Wars cartoons to have insane exaggerations as being inherent to the medium, then why not allow for a comic from 1978 to use a sci-fi term of the day as being inherent to the medium?

To cite a word as an irreconcilable contradiction, and therefore, something to be discarded is really missing the forest for the trees.
PiccoloKenobi


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 23, 2007 1:11 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Hello Tasty! This is bothering me for some time now and there is no other way than a question in this thread. ;-)

I'm wondering to which extent the events described in Star Wars Galaxies (and its Add-Ons) are canon. Since not every SW fan has the chance, ressources and/or money to enter the "Galaxies", it would be a pity if these fans are missing an important piece of the SW Universe.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 21, 2007 4:06 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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And this is not on account of any sillyness-factor, as I find enough of that in C-canon. It is more a matter of outright breaches with C-canon, or simply implications and minor elements which sits very uneasy when compared with the general image I perceve from C-canon, even if they do not actually conflict with anything.

An example of the former: Han Solo constantly referring to his Hyperdrive as a Warp Drive, and Lightspeed as Warp. Contradictory, unless a similar mistake has ever been made in C-canon.
An example of the latter: Alien planets featuring a host of one-shot alien species, and virtually none of the established ones. Not contradictory per se, since it might have happened in a galaxy as large as theirs. Problem is that the odds for it are staggering, and very far from the "remind fans of the movies"-approach generally taken by C-canon when it comes to alien species.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 21, 2007 4:03 AM   in response to: TalonCard86 in response to: TalonCard86
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Seems to me like it's six, one, half-a-dozen or the other. Some C-canon stuff even goes to great lengths to reconcile small details from the comics (gundarks and TIE Fighter ejection seats come to mind) with the greater continuity. What is it in Marvel that you don't want to see as part of the continuity?
Author intent does not always create continuity. When the notion that S-canon is part of SW on its own is as widespread as it is, why would authors be any less subsceptible? As for what I wouldn't like to see, that is very besides the point, as I have no hand in continuity whatsoever. Let's just say the list is longer than I have patience to write on the forums.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 21, 2007 3:47 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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*This then translated into a greater urgency in getting more and more of this material into the Holocron. *
Which is done through C-canon raferences, obviously. Note the wording, though: more and more of this material into the Holocron. Since it is not already there, that must mean 1) that we are talking about continuity (I don't know whether the Holocron tracks non-canon stuff) rather than all kinds of SW, and thus 2) that it isn't a part of continuity on its own. See the reasoning?

Selective interpretation? No more than yours, and IMO far more solid than an argument hinging on a belief that anything not part of continuity would already be "N-canon" (you know: the category of non-continuity stuff), therefore it must be part of continuity. An argument which stands and falls upon an unsubstantiated assumption that there is no middle ground. Which S-canon has more or less been explicitly stated to be .
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 21, 2007 3:32 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Connection got busted for a couple days, and now I return to find Tasty has (admittedly in his trademark vague way) confirmed my stance. Thus I see no reason to argue your points, jS, but just because I suspect you will challenge that Tasty confirmed anthing, I will pre-empt just a tad:

It's worth mentioning that when the Holocron was started, there was no intent of fully embracing the Marvel contents as continuity.
This is pretty heavy. But still, Canon changes, as seen in the next part.

After Dark Horse reprinted the comics as trade paperbacks, there was renewed interest from fans in seeing these become more relevant to continuity, and more importantly, there was now an easy way for authors and artists to access this information.
Still, nothing definite, so here we go:
Darth NTM


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 19, 2007 4:22 PM   in response to: JMMC in response to: JMMC
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You say the original EC puts him at 24? This does sync with the script, and gives a plausible age difference with Luke.....hmmm....
JMMC


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 19, 2007 6:01 AM   in response to: Darth NTM in response to: Darth NTM
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Actually, the original Essential Guide to Characters said that Biggs was 24 years old at the time of ANH. Later sources, like the X-wing novels, have placed him at being about 18 years old in ANH. Interestingly, this would actually make him a little younger than Luke. This of course, was based on the belief that Luke was 18 and not 19 in the movie. Episode III gave us a continuity issue by placing certain events in 19 BBY, instead of 18 BBY, which was where they were set for the longest time. And keep in mind that that Essential Guide also states outright that Owen and Ben are brothers.
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 18, 2007 6:13 AM   in response to: Darth NTM in response to: Darth NTM
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What is the deal with the De Maals and Ellorrs Madak & Baniss Keeg? Gamer 2 mentions that the De Maals use Madak & Keeg as their aliases. What about the background then for Madak & Keeg from the SE SW Trilogy Sourcebook?
Darth NTM


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 18, 2007 5:25 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Tasty, you got a birth year for Biggs Darklighter in the Holocron? References to Gavin Darklighter's age seems to imply 18 BBY, but this would make no sense, since he's characterised as older than Luke.

(Most likely this EU age was done under the belief Luke was born in 18 BBY).

The ANH shooting script labels Biggs a "burly boy a few years older than the rest", which in my mind would say 22 BBY (or maybe 21 BBY).

Is their a definite date in the Holocron?
Leland Y Chee


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 18, 2007 12:10 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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It's worth mentioning that when the Holocron was started, there was no intent of fully embracing the Marvel contents as continuity. My personal rationale for this was due to the lack of accessibilty by fans and authors to the comics at the time. After Dark Horse reprinted the comics as trade paperbacks, there was renewed interest from fans in seeing these become more relevant to continuity, and more importantly, there was now an easy way for authors and artists to access this information. This then translated into a greater urgency in getting more and more of this material into the Holocron.
TalonCard86


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 3:56 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Since the Holocron tracks continuity by individual entires, rather than sources, simply having one or more elements, or even the general storyline referenced, should not make the entire issue part of continuity.<


Seems to me like it's six, one, half-a-dozen or the other. Some C-canon stuff even goes to great lengths to reconcile small details from the comics (gundarks and TIE Fighter ejection seats come to mind) with the greater continuity. What is it in Marvel that you don't want to see as part of the continuity?

TC
jSarek


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 7:14 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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Seems you added a bit after I answered:

Is this entire line of reasoning based upon G, C, and S being labelled canon, while N is labelled continuity? Doesn't that strike you as a rather thin basis for an argument? All that tells me is that N definetly isn't part of continuity (although Tasty has contradicted that one too...), while G, C, and S either are, or could potentially be.

N isn't labeled continuity; it is labeled NON-continuity. That is to say, it is not part of the continuity, and I've yet to see any post where Tasty contradicts that. The other three are; they're given the label of canon, where N-stuff isn't.
jSarek


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 7:06 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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And it seems the only defense you can muster is a notion that something bearing the Canon label has to be part of continuity, despite C-licensors ability to disregard it completely

Licensees can also completely disregard C-canon material, as Path of Destruction recently demonstrated. Canon and continuity are more malleable than people think, which is why the fact that S-canon can be disregarded doesn't mean it's not canon or in-continuity.

? Both of those links mention N-canon along with the other letters.

Reread them; you'll note he never calls them N-canon. The quote I quoted is him clarifying that "N" is not a level of canon, but the way he marks non-canon things in the mandatory canon field. S-canon, on the other hand, IS called canon throughout.
jSarek


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 7:06 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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If you are referring to this:

No, I was referring to the quote I quoted.

...which clearly indicates that even non-canon is Canon for the purposes of the Holocron, though obviously not continuity. Ergo, something being Canon does not automatically make it part of continuity.

Umm, no, it says exactly the opposite, that "Non-continuity is not canon."

Besides, where does this notion that anything with the Canon label is definetly a part of continuity come from in the first place? I mean, we've got N-canon to contradict that possibility right there.

Umm, no, we DON'T. There is no such thing as "N-canon." There is Non-continuity stuff, which Tasty marks in the Holocron by putting an "N" in the canon field. He has never referred to N-material as canon, which is my point.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 6:49 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Or maybe I don't...

Note that, in every case, including Tasty's original revelation on Page 2 and in Tasty's blog, that S-canon is always referred to as canon, while N-level material is not. Thus, it's canon.

? Both of those links mention N-canon along with the other letters. Is this entire line of reasoning based upon G, C, and S being labelled canon, while N is labelled continuity? Doesn't that strike you as a rather thin basis for an argument? All that tells me is that N definetly isn't part of continuity (although Tasty has contradicted that one too...), while G, C, and S either are, or could potentially be.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 6:26 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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I dare call all of this insurmountable evidence that S-canon isn't part of continuity in itself. And it seems the only defense you can muster is a notion that something bearing the Canon label has to be part of continuity, despite C-licensors ability to disregard it completely, the fact that it hasn't gone through LFL testing, that even Infinites are Canon for the purposes of the Holocron database system, that the S category has been explicitly stated to be available for Continuity, and a container for things that have not yet been declared C or N.

I rest my case.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 6:24 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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Also note that all material, including G, C, and S, is "available" for continuity. That doesn't mean it wasn't continuity in the first place.
What is that supposed to mean? G and C are continuity. How can they be available for something they already are. That would make it redundant to call it available. Sorry, man, but this last one was rather weak.

Besides, where does this notion that anything with the Canon label is definetly a part of continuity come from in the first place? I mean, we've got N-canon to contradict that possibility right there.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 6:22 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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If you are referring to this:
*
Canon: G+C+S
Continuity: G+C
Is it right?

Not exactly. Continuity and canon and pretty much the same thing as far as the Holocron goes.*

...and the fact that S has the Canon label, then you should also consider your own quote:

Okay, Non-continuity is not canon, it's just a way to classify non-continuity stuff in a database field called "canon.

...which clearly indicates that even non-canon is Canon for the purposes of the Holocron, though obviously not continuity. Ergo, something being Canon does not automatically make it part of continuity.

I must thank you, though, for that link. Further down I found even more solid proof than I had dared hope for:

*Is it (S-canon) a 'container' for older resources that are not yet completely checked but will be placed to either C or N after inspection?

That about sums it up, though "inspection" only occurs as needed when it is referenced in something else. *


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