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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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Leland Y Chee


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 18, 2007 12:10 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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It's worth mentioning that when the Holocron was started, there was no intent of fully embracing the Marvel contents as continuity. My personal rationale for this was due to the lack of accessibilty by fans and authors to the comics at the time. After Dark Horse reprinted the comics as trade paperbacks, there was renewed interest from fans in seeing these become more relevant to continuity, and more importantly, there was now an easy way for authors and artists to access this information. This then translated into a greater urgency in getting more and more of this material into the Holocron.
TalonCard86


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 3:56 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Since the Holocron tracks continuity by individual entires, rather than sources, simply having one or more elements, or even the general storyline referenced, should not make the entire issue part of continuity.<


Seems to me like it's six, one, half-a-dozen or the other. Some C-canon stuff even goes to great lengths to reconcile small details from the comics (gundarks and TIE Fighter ejection seats come to mind) with the greater continuity. What is it in Marvel that you don't want to see as part of the continuity?

TC
jSarek


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 7:14 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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Seems you added a bit after I answered:

Is this entire line of reasoning based upon G, C, and S being labelled canon, while N is labelled continuity? Doesn't that strike you as a rather thin basis for an argument? All that tells me is that N definetly isn't part of continuity (although Tasty has contradicted that one too...), while G, C, and S either are, or could potentially be.

N isn't labeled continuity; it is labeled NON-continuity. That is to say, it is not part of the continuity, and I've yet to see any post where Tasty contradicts that. The other three are; they're given the label of canon, where N-stuff isn't.
jSarek


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 7:06 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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And it seems the only defense you can muster is a notion that something bearing the Canon label has to be part of continuity, despite C-licensors ability to disregard it completely

Licensees can also completely disregard C-canon material, as Path of Destruction recently demonstrated. Canon and continuity are more malleable than people think, which is why the fact that S-canon can be disregarded doesn't mean it's not canon or in-continuity.

? Both of those links mention N-canon along with the other letters.

Reread them; you'll note he never calls them N-canon. The quote I quoted is him clarifying that "N" is not a level of canon, but the way he marks non-canon things in the mandatory canon field. S-canon, on the other hand, IS called canon throughout.
jSarek


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 7:06 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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If you are referring to this:

No, I was referring to the quote I quoted.

...which clearly indicates that even non-canon is Canon for the purposes of the Holocron, though obviously not continuity. Ergo, something being Canon does not automatically make it part of continuity.

Umm, no, it says exactly the opposite, that "Non-continuity is not canon."

Besides, where does this notion that anything with the Canon label is definetly a part of continuity come from in the first place? I mean, we've got N-canon to contradict that possibility right there.

Umm, no, we DON'T. There is no such thing as "N-canon." There is Non-continuity stuff, which Tasty marks in the Holocron by putting an "N" in the canon field. He has never referred to N-material as canon, which is my point.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 6:49 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Or maybe I don't...

Note that, in every case, including Tasty's original revelation on Page 2 and in Tasty's blog, that S-canon is always referred to as canon, while N-level material is not. Thus, it's canon.

? Both of those links mention N-canon along with the other letters. Is this entire line of reasoning based upon G, C, and S being labelled canon, while N is labelled continuity? Doesn't that strike you as a rather thin basis for an argument? All that tells me is that N definetly isn't part of continuity (although Tasty has contradicted that one too...), while G, C, and S either are, or could potentially be.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 6:26 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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I dare call all of this insurmountable evidence that S-canon isn't part of continuity in itself. And it seems the only defense you can muster is a notion that something bearing the Canon label has to be part of continuity, despite C-licensors ability to disregard it completely, the fact that it hasn't gone through LFL testing, that even Infinites are Canon for the purposes of the Holocron database system, that the S category has been explicitly stated to be available for Continuity, and a container for things that have not yet been declared C or N.

I rest my case.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 6:24 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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Also note that all material, including G, C, and S, is "available" for continuity. That doesn't mean it wasn't continuity in the first place.
What is that supposed to mean? G and C are continuity. How can they be available for something they already are. That would make it redundant to call it available. Sorry, man, but this last one was rather weak.

Besides, where does this notion that anything with the Canon label is definetly a part of continuity come from in the first place? I mean, we've got N-canon to contradict that possibility right there.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 6:22 AM   in response to: jSarek in response to: jSarek
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If you are referring to this:
*
Canon: G+C+S
Continuity: G+C
Is it right?

Not exactly. Continuity and canon and pretty much the same thing as far as the Holocron goes.*

...and the fact that S has the Canon label, then you should also consider your own quote:

Okay, Non-continuity is not canon, it's just a way to classify non-continuity stuff in a database field called "canon.

...which clearly indicates that even non-canon is Canon for the purposes of the Holocron, though obviously not continuity. Ergo, something being Canon does not automatically make it part of continuity.

I must thank you, though, for that link. Further down I found even more solid proof than I had dared hope for:

*Is it (S-canon) a 'container' for older resources that are not yet completely checked but will be placed to either C or N after inspection?

That about sums it up, though "inspection" only occurs as needed when it is referenced in something else. *

jSarek


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 17, 2007 5:26 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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You're not the only one on long searches . . . I finally found for to answer your question:

Okay, Non-continuity is not canon, it's just a way to classify non-continuity stuff in a database field called "canon."

Note that, in every case, including Tasty's original revelation on Page 2 and in , that S-canon is always referred to as canon, while N-level material is not. Thus, it's canon.

Also note that all material, including G, C, and S, is "available" for continuity. That doesn't mean it wasn't continuity in the first place.
JediKiller BenK...


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 16, 2007 11:23 PM   in response to: TalonCard86 in response to: TalonCard86
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The comic has Vos on Kashyyyk recalling that he had
recieved word of Dooku's death while moving to Boz
Pity. At the time Ben said his line, Vos was
on Boz Pity; and he then moved to Kashyyyk during the
events of the film.

I may have just read the opening wrong I'm gonna check the comic real quick.

All right just checked, it says in the opening caption that he got the word Dooku had been killded as he moved his troops from Boz Pity to Kashyyyk, I'm not sure if that is true and he was still on Boz Pity at the time and that's what ben meant in ROTS or if there is some other explanation? ?:|
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 16, 2007 11:20 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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I'd even go so far as to say Marvel can be disregarded entirely, because the only parts of them that are Canon owes that entirely to a C-canon reference, which can stand on its own two legs. I.e, the only Canon parts of it are those in the reference -the Marvel comic just happens to feature a storyline revolving around the same.

The last bit is speculation on my part, though. But considering how C-canon licensors are free to use or discard S-canon at their own leasure, I don't see how it can be any other way.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 16, 2007 11:18 PM   in response to: TalonCard86 in response to: TalonCard86
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The thing is that Marvel has been referenced with such frequency that nearly all of it has been mentioned in C-canon stories. So any way you look at it, most of (just about all) Marvel is C-canon. It's tough to think of a good example of a major Marvel storyline that hasn't been referenced and brought into canon.
This is where we are moving into dubious territory.

Since the Holocron tracks continuity by individual entires, rather than sources, simply having one or more elements, or even the general storyline referenced, should not make the entire issue part of continuity. If it did, Marvel would be C-canon in its entirety just because either Luke, Leia, Han or Vader feature in every issue.
TalonCard86


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 16, 2007 4:38 PM   in response to: TheSithEmpire in response to: TheSithEmpire
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At this stage in time, Marvel should really be considered C canon, with the exception of the rare issue (eg., #78 and Flight of the Falcon) that's beyond retconning.<


Even #78 has been dealt with. The Planet Hoppers: Hoth articles explained the "Janson dies" part of the story as a tall tale, and even the framing story was subtly dealt with in a throwaway line in the Planet Hoppers: Adumar article. So while the original intent isn't canon, the whole issue can now fit with everything else. I'm not sure that the original writer would appreciate having his gritty war story turned into a wacky Allstonesque prank, though. ;)
TalonCard86


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 16, 2007 4:32 PM   in response to: JediKiller BenK... in response to: JediKiller BenK...
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Are there any official explanations for vos being on kashyyyk in the clone wars vol 9 during ROTS? Ben says he his troops were moving and he was stationed on boz pity,<


The comic has Vos on Kashyyyk recalling that he had recieved word of Dooku's death while moving to Boz Pity. At the time Ben said his line, Vos was on Boz Pity; and he then moved to Kashyyyk during the events of the film.
TalonCard86


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 16, 2007 4:27 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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The thing is that Marvel has been referenced with such frequency that nearly all of it has been mentioned in C-canon stories. So any way you look at it, most of (just about all) Marvel is C-canon. It's tough to think of a good example of a major Marvel storyline that hasn't been referenced and brought into canon.

TC
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 16, 2007 10:19 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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"Pretty much all of the planets, creatures, and characters in the Marvel comics are considered available for continuity. It's only the plot elements that are contradictory to the rest of the EU that are not."

If, I've understood this correctly, Marvel and other S-canon isn't part of continuity, merely available as I thought in option 2, as a pool of ideas which C-canon licencors are free to use, and then -only then- will they be part of continuity. A Canon tag does not equal continuity.

Bite the dust, Wookieepedians!
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 16, 2007 10:16 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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*1) I've misunderstood S-canon completely, and Han Solo featuring in a work of G-canon automatically makes every S-canon storyline, name and object centering on him C-canon.

2) S-canon is merely a non-canon, yet approved pool of ideas which licenced artists are free to draw upon for inspiration in their works, compared to N-canon, which they are prohibited from drawing upon in any way. For example, creators are free to canonize Crimson Jack from Marvel Star Wars 7 if they are so inclined, in which case the storyline about him from that comic never happened, whereas they cannot canonize Tag & Bink however much they want to.

Which is correct? And if neither, please explain. *

After long searches, I've found the answer to my own question. And it should hold some interest.
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?forumID=24 &hilite=true&start=15&threadID=74104&q=marvel#3629650
Rancor_Orga

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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 13, 2007 11:25 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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This may sound like a silly question, but is the mention of "who" and "who-ville" in the Tales story "Force Fiction" non-canon? I would think so.
Sompeetalay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Oct 12, 2007 12:08 PM   in response to: yoda´s waiter in response to: yoda´s waiter
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According to 4-Inches.de (http://www.4-inches.de/inhalt/hom e.htm), the Battle of Endor battlepack contains an Ewok known as Dochee. He's a black Ewok.

I was wondering where and if he can be seen in the movie or was he only created for Hasbro?

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