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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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lukevanhorn


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 8:05 PM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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Well, again, if they're "definitely infinities," why didn't Leland say so instead of giving his "fuzzy" answer? Given that the publisher apparently doesn't know what infinities means (else why label the fold out posters), this should be taken with a grain of salt. Besides, it's just false that all of these stories don't fit into the continuity. Some, like "Perfect Evil," have problems, but "Evil Eye" and "Dear Anakin" fit just fine. "Dark Jedi" is somewhere in-between, but it's also been referenced. Again, it seems like these stories have been treated more like they're S than N.
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 7:20 PM   in response to: lukevanhorn in response to: lukevanhorn
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My mistake, not on the cover, but from the publishers' summary:

"This month, Tokyopop will release a Star Wars Manga anthology filled with uniquely bold tales set in a peculiarly Japanese incarnation of that galaxy far, far away... For their daring plots and offbeat directions, *these stories are definitely "Infinities"*-that is, they don't actually fit into Star Wars continuity. Nonetheless, they are rich in character, detail and action and are definitely worth a look. This anthology, which is a mix of black and white comics with a few color spreads of original illustrations, will only be available initially in Japan."
lukevanhorn


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 6:30 PM   in response to: lukevanhorn in response to: lukevanhorn
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I think there was also some thing he mentioned in an older post about how even if they referenced the Tarquinas somewhere, that wouldn't make the Infinities version of ANH canon.

I never said otherwise. If someone were to reference the Tarquinas, then that element would be canon, not the whole story. Similarly, we know that at least Shumari is C-canon, since it's in the Essential Atlas, even if the rest of "Perfect Evil" is N-canon. But I'm not convinced that the rest is N-canon. So far, these stories seem to be in a sort of canon limbo, which sounds sort of like S-canon to me. Note also that Abel referenced Dica from "Dark Jedi" in the context of Grievous getting a lightsaber from a dark Jedi. The reference isn't exactly like the manga story, but it's similar (perhaps Grievous finds either Kaa or Lii on Dica after the end of the comic), so it sounds like it's more than just the planet that is in continuity.
lukevanhorn


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 6:29 PM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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That and the fact that it actually says they're "definitely 'Infinities'" verbatim on the cover.

Where? I'm looking right at the cover of my copy of Star Wars Manga Black and I don't see the word "infinities" or the infinities symbol anywhere (but I do see the rise of the empire and galactic civil war symbols).
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 3:09 PM   in response to: lukevanhorn in response to: lukevanhorn
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The reason for labeling them so is that when they were reprinted in the UK, they came with the infinities tag.

That and the fact that it actually says they're "definitely 'Infinities'" verbatim on the cover. I think there was also some thing he mentioned in an older post about how even if they referenced the Tarquinas somewhere, that wouldn't make the Infinities version of ANH canon.
lukevanhorn


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 1:52 PM   in response to: lukevanhorn in response to: lukevanhorn
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On the other hand, Leland has been asked more than once about the canon status of these stories and all he's said is that it's "fuzzy." Furthermore, elements from "Dark Jedi" and "Perfect Evil" have both been referenced elsewhere (the planets Dica and Shumari are both in the Essential Atlas, which doesn't count for much, since it references N-canon sources, too, but Dica is also in one of Abel Pena's articles). Abel also said that he was going to reference Tao from "Perfect Evil" in his Vader's Legacy article. Finally, at least some of the stories (e.g., "Evil Eye" and "Dear Anakin") could fit into the continuity without any problem at all. So, I'm skeptical that the wook page is correct.

Edit: I forgot to add that while the stories have the infinities tag, the back covers still use the different era symbols instead of infinities, so once again, I think there's reason to hold the N-canon status of these stories in some doubt.
lukevanhorn


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 1:52 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Yeah, I've seen that wook page, but I think there's reason to not be so quick to label all the stories (or at least all the elements of the stories) N-canon. The reason for labeling them so is that when they were reprinted in the UK, they came with the infinities tag. However, I'm not so sure that we should take that at face value, as whoever applied them apparently didn't know what they meant (which is why the fold-out posters also have the infinity tag, which doesn't make any sense).
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 9:43 AM   in response to: lukevanhorn in response to: lukevanhorn
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lukevanhorn


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 9:23 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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And to add to what Milo said about Battlefront, there exists other material strongly implied to be S as well, these too released after the Holocron.

A good example might be the Tokyopop manga stories. Leland said in this thread that their canon status is "fuzzy," which sounds like S to me.
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 12, 2010 6:51 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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I see what you mean, but really, we're just using different names for the same scenario here. Whether it's C or S, the same material would potentially be removed from continuity, and just sliding it "down the line" to S to be removed doesn't lessen the possibility of other C-canon material being removed this way in the future.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 11, 2010 10:31 PM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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Making them S-canon would just be redundant.

That sounds like it, yes.

I could argue that the creation of T was justified alone by Lucas involvement being greater than in the EU, yet smaller than in the films. But as far as this matters for continuity, it would as you say only be as a preferred determiner in C vs T conflicts, making a S demotion redundant.

But I gotta say I don't like it one bit, for it makes C look like S whenever GL is involved. Which isn't a surprise exactly, but I think I liked it better when it seemed like a horrible exception rather than a law enabling prediction of the future, which S would have avoided. If that makes sense.
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 11, 2010 9:01 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Barring this (and whatever Milo's argument was) a demotion seems to be what would have made most sense. Demote the old, let TCW redefine, then bring the non-contradictory parts of the old back with something else. Done!

Oh, now I sort of remember. It was probably pointing out that the whole reason the T-canon continuity rank was created was (as for all canon rankings, for internal purposes) to have something to override C-canon, although predominantly meant to override specifically CW stories. Making them S-canon would just be redundant.

The only reason not to use S post-Holocron would be so fans could feel secure in the canon status of their purcases.

And the post-Holocron preference for actually cross-indexing things to avoid conflicts, rather than just yelling down the hall. What's C-canon now has earned its C-canon status (with the possible exception of the Jedi Academy Training Manual and/or Street of Shadows).
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 11, 2010 8:11 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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And to add to what Milo said about Battlefront, there exists other material strongly implied to be S as well, these too released after the Holocron. Not to mention how S being used only for older works makes no sense. From a practical perspective, neglecting to use your only tool for a certain job after some arbitrary point in time is nonsense.

The only reason not to use S post-Holocron would be so fans could feel secure in the canon status of their purcases. But since the same job can be accomplished by just keeping any such demotion silent, there is AFAIK no reason left Licensing would not use it internally.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 11, 2010 8:09 PM   in response to: mason_1701 in response to: mason_1701
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If he has explicitly said so, then barring a change of stance, there will be no S demotion.

This presumably because we live in a world where fans need to feel their money has bought them C material, that cannot just be demoted nilly-willy. Barring this (and whatever Milo's argument was) a demotion seems to be what would have made most sense. Demote the old, let TCW redefine, then bring the non-contradictory parts of the old back with something else. Done! Problem solved.
mason_1701


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 11, 2010 7:37 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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Okay yea that makes sense. But my point regarding The Clone Wars vs. older Clone Wars material stands. Because of the definition of S-cnon, downgrading something to S because it contradicts something new/higher (G/T/C) is pretty well identical to downgrading it all the way to N, which Leland said he would not be doing.
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 11, 2010 7:19 AM   in response to: mason_1701 in response to: mason_1701
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After all, isn't the whole point of S-canon to work with things from pre-Holocron times that no longer fit?

Pre-Holocron isn't the entire criterion, though. I think I remember the original Battlefront being mentioned to be S.
mason_1701


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 11, 2010 5:57 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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From previous quotes, from Leland and others, I assume that nothing will be demoted at all, whether to N or S canon.

After all, isn't the whole point of S-canon to work with things from pre-Holocron times that no longer fit? And isn't it essentially that everything S-canon either a) remains canon, but unreferenced, so it may or may not be continuity, b) get promoted to C-canon because a newer, post-holocron source uses it, or c) becomes non-canon because a new source cancels it out?

So if you're demoting certain elements of CW to S-canon, aren't you doing so only because something newer (T-canon) contradicts it? And if so, doesn't that automatically make it Non-canon, not S-canon?

And hasn't Leland explicitly said that NOTHING will be made non-canon?
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 10, 2010 8:18 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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But I also remember DarthMilo making a good case for why that wouldn't help, though I can't for the life of me remember what that argument was.

Nor can I. It sounds like a good idea to me now, provided that the S-canon would only be applied to conflicting material (for example, Armor but not necessarily +The Dreadnaughts of Rendili+) and that this classification system didn't affect the number of contradictions that arose at all (or at least didn't increase them). It could be that I argued against making all older CW material S-canon, although I don't remember my argument there either. Could be something about the sheer amount of inter-referencing, which tends to defeat the point of S-canon.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 10, 2010 6:20 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Here's a fun thought - could it be that the pre-TCW Clone Wars material that is directly contradicted by TCW will be demoted to S-canon,

That's what I'm hoping, as it seems like a gross waste of a canon category not to solve issues precisely like the TCW debacle with it. But I also remember DarthMilo making a good case for why that wouldn't help, though I can't for the life of me remember what that argument was.

The promise that all CW material would eventually get squeezed back in does sorta squash the possibility of a S demotion, anyway.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 10, 2010 6:19 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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All I see in your position is the desire to use the actual approved uses of S by authors as a maxim to assume all S is eligible for the same. The assumption that none of it has ever been rejected without our knowledge, and that none ever will. Which strikes me as ridiculous in light of the obvious take it or leave it nature of S-canon, as expressed by Leland. I strongly doubt he would create an entire canon category for stuff that Licensing would just end up approving as if it was C-canon anyway.

Who is to say what we see of elevated S isn't just a small minority, while the rest has been mercilessly slashed?

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