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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 9, 2010 2:56 PM   in response to: blackmyron in response to: blackmyron
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There is some material we should keep, despite the now-extremely crowded timeframe, and with enough work anything can be retconned (sometimes masterfully, as with "Tan Skywalker") but I can still see why they would want to keep it as optional. Although it's great when they do, authors can't be expected to include the entire Marvel run in their background research of a time period.
blackmyron

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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 9, 2010 2:10 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Jabba the Hut? Already retconned in Tales From Jabba's Palace.

The Holocron tracking is internal - again, the key phrase. Chee was kind enough to pull back the curtain, so to speak, to glimpse a little about how the Holocron works. S-canon and C-canon are both EU, and as far as for people not working with the Holocron (i.e. vast majority of SW fans) has little meaning. It's "movie/Lucas > TV series > everything else" for us, really.
'Meaningless' means - quite simply - that the current batch of prolific SW authors don't really seem to see much of a difference between "S" and "C". Personally, I would've been fine with the Marvel series being dropped off the face of the Earth - Wallace, Fry, Hidalgo, Pena etc. completely turned me around on it. I'm not sure what even would be considered "S" now anyways - but like I said, if the authors don't care, I'm not sure why I should. YMMV.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 9, 2010 3:34 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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That the Holocron tracks by entry rather than full source just means that some Marvel comic or JJK book being referenced does not mean the full work of fiction has been C-canonized, as many EU fans seem to think. "Marvel or SWHS can still be valid" just supports that these are not thrown out until a definite call has to be made, and it certainly takes nothing away from the optional status of them.

Optional does not mean non-continuity. But a skeptical mind should IMO consider it such. until proven otherwise. Did I miss anything relevant?
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 9, 2010 3:32 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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I'm also not sure what point you are trying to make, Myron. If it is "what the hell does it matter, we are doomed anyways", then fine. I respect that. I just don't agree with it, not yet anyways (being sorely tested, though, especially with this Marvel re-release).

But as far as S meaning "optional", nothing presented detracts from that. I was already aware of every quote, and had considered them. Heck, I even asked one of the questions. "Available" means optional. Something that is merely available, can not be called part of a interconnected continuity. That Chee does not make arbitrary calls is why he doesn't sit down writing his own version of continuity (though I wished he would), and in stead lets authors define stuff freely, so long as they do so within the confines of what already exists.
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 8, 2010 7:02 PM   in response to: blackmyron in response to: blackmyron
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Do you mean to say that all distinction between the two is arbitrary? Because if so, there's a "Jabba the Hut" I'd like you to meet.
blackmyron

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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 8, 2010 6:00 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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But probably the most important quote (in my mind at least):

"The Holocron canon field is entirely for internal purposes. " - Chee - 03.02.05

But it's really all moot anyways. The inclusive nature of most recent works - the Essential Atlas springs to mind - renders any arbitrary delineation between C- and S-canon pointless. If the surface of Bespin, tropical Kessel and Tiltony are C-canon now, what else is left to say?
blackmyron

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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 8, 2010 5:52 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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"Any contradictions that arise are dealt with on a case-by-case basis." - Chee 11.09.06

"Since its initial creation, has the canonical hierarchy ever been updated to include new levels, or to change which parts fits in which category?

Yes to both. Early on, several things like juvenile fiction and games were going to all be considered S continuity, but it eventually became easier to just classify all new works as C. I didn't want the difference between S and C to be an arbitrary subjective opinion on my part."
Chee - 01.02.07
blackmyron

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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 8, 2010 5:51 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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"*Who makes the decisions to consider some of the Marvel series "canon" and some not? *

Pretty much all of the planets, creatures, and characters in the Marvel comics are considered available for continuity. It's only the plot elements that are contradictory to the rest of the EU that are not.

Though I don't discuss specific continuity issues in this thread, I do want to the address the fact that in the Holocron, we track continuity by Holocron entry and not by source.

What that means is, a particular source would never be discounted in its entirety, only those elements of that source that are contradictory.

Hence, while there may be individual elements of say the Marvel Comics or the Holiday Special that are considered non-continuity, all the other parts can still be valid. " - Chee, 03.28.04

"*Canon: G+C+S
Continuity: G+C
Is it right?*

Not exactly. Continuity and canon and pretty much the same thing as far as the Holocron goes." - Chee 06.28.04
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 7, 2010 5:02 PM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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Aha. Sounds like a question worth asking him, then.

I'll ask one myself, too:

Leland, I just heard that there are plans for Droids and Ewoks comic reprints by Dark Horse. Does this mean that these comics have gone through Holocron testing and been deemed C-canon?

I was always a little unsure of whether reprints and re-releases of older material meant it fell under the same rules as "new" new material.

darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 7, 2010 9:28 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Since he said he doesn't have access to BTS info for the Star Wars Holiday Special, I was wondering if he was aware of such info in Star Wars Chronicles and didn't consider it official enough to make official judgments on canon.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 7, 2010 8:07 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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While I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to, it stands to reason that being behind the scenes, it is not continuity by itself. And even if it is, S can be referenced just fine, making the info C.
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 7, 2010 7:21 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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I wonder what his stance on the SWHS behind the scenes info in Star Wars Chronicles is, then?
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 7, 2010 12:17 AM   in response to: blackmyron in response to: blackmyron
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Ah. Back to this at last:

I don't believe that Chee has ever used the term "optional" about S-canon

Me neither. Which is why I used so long before I simply began using that adjective as a descriptor. What he has said is that S is a container for stuff that has yet to be rendered non-continuity or full C-canon, and will remain thus ambiguous until a creator decides to make that call.

For all the quotes you bring up, Blackmyron, none of them actually says what S-canon means. These posts do, however, and it can be summed up as "optional":

http:// forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=285

http:// forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=870

If there are further questions or clarifications required, just ask, as I have now compiled the Leland posts I found relevant. Safely on my computer, where censorship ghosts cannot reach them.

Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 3, 2010 4:32 PM   in response to: super_renegadeg... in response to: super_renegadeg...
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He spends a bit of time in the novel discussing how the holocrons hold simulacra, not spirits. It's in the same scene, I think, where he mentions why he left the holocron showing him with armor.
super_renegadeg...

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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 3, 2010 4:02 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Sorry for the possible spoiler.

If I understand this correctly, Bane transferred part of his spirit to his holocron when he made it, right?
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 3, 2010 1:14 PM   in response to: super_renegadeg... in response to: super_renegadeg...
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super_renegadegoosi: Yeah, you really need to use spoiler warnings. Luckily, I've finished the novel already.

With regard to what you ask: What we see in Legacy is a holocron projection, and the appearance of that particular character (which only matches a portion of his lifetime) is actually explained in the novel you just finished reading.
darthmilo77


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Registered: 12/12/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 3, 2010 9:12 AM   in response to: Master Optician in response to: Master Optician
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Yeah, thanks for that, super_renegadegoosi.

To answer your question, though, spoiler warning I think it was a Holocron in Legacy.
Master Optician


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 3, 2010 8:41 AM   in response to: super_renegadeg... in response to: super_renegadeg...
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Plot info from newly released books (released in the past two months) REQUIRE spoiler warnings.

I now know what happens to Bane.

sigh
super_renegadeg...

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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 3, 2010 7:54 AM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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I have a question about the latest Darth Bane novel.

SPOILER WARNING

After Bane is killed, his spirit seeems to be destroyed, as confirmed on Drew Karpyshyn's blog. How come a Legacy-era comic shows Bane's spirit criticizing Darth Krayt if Bane's spirit was destroyed as he tried to possess Zannah?
Le Passant


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jan 2, 2010 2:33 PM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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It seems that there is individuals, on internet, whose don't understand this "new potential mistake" as us.

If the other jedi from the episode have their name, but Sora and the Nikto have "...", it's perhaps because they were just the model. I hope. I hope.

By the way, they can use existent characters for their stories. Why can't they bring back some old characters, like Empatojayos Brand, Qu Rahn, Maw, Ranik Solusar, Corran Horn's father, etc.
So simple. So good for the EU fans.

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