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Thread: Holocron continuity database questions



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Malachi108

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Registered: 07/07/09
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 9, 2009 3:13 PM   in response to: PiccoloKenobi in response to: PiccoloKenobi
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Do I understand correctly that any SW-related material that only made appearance in commercials/ads/promo materials, but had not been officialy released elsewhere, is non-canonical?
PiccoloKenobi


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Registered: 07/26/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 9, 2009 10:52 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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Maybe there should just be an Essential Calendar?

After the end of TCW such a thing will be really, really necessary... sigh
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 5, 2009 1:01 PM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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Maybe there should just be an Essential Calendar?
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 3, 2009 4:05 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet. So much simpler and reader-friendly.
Leland Y Chee


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 3, 2009 3:55 PM   in response to: Nathan P. Butler in response to: Nathan P. Butler
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Using the dates as part of the 12-month calendar is definitely what I would suggest should we ever need to revisit the West End Games dates.
Nathan P. Butler


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 3, 2009 3:45 PM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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Okay, Leland, this one's for you:

Given that we just did the Atlas in-universe dating on a 12-month calendar, even the two films that had their dates originate on a 10-month calendar, and given other considerations of the 10 vs. 12 month calendar dating that we've discussed in the past . . .

It would seem that, barring a very few minor dates (now somewhat in limbo due to the confirmation of the ESB 10-month date as its 12-mnth date), all of the 10-month dates of years past seem to have been mostly limited to obscure RPG materials from the WEG days, S-Canonical and so forth.

Is there any chance that we could simply, for the sake of simplicity and user-friendly dates, just assume that the old in-universe Galaxywide News Nets and other WEG RPG dates from a 10-month calendar were actually on a 12-month calendar like the current one all along? Perhaps we just never saw any dates from Months 11 or 12. The only dates that would still be head-scratchers might be Fete Weeks (which could easily overlap with regular weeks very much like, say, Jewish and Islamic holidays that last more than a few days).

It would certainly seem logical and an easy way to "fix" the age old 10 vs. 12 month question in "one swift stroke."

And it'd fit with how we were directed in creating the dates for the the Atlas, which seems like it it the way things are leaning anyway.

What say you?
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2009 4:40 PM   in response to: IllogicalRogue2 in response to: IllogicalRogue2
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I always thought the Naboo blockade incident was supposed to make the Republic look weak (while making Palpatine look stronger), adding systems to support the Confederacy, since it may not have mattered to Palpatine which side won anyway, since he would be control either way.
IllogicalRogue2


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2009 1:46 PM   in response to: Valin Kenobi in response to: Valin Kenobi
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I agree with you VK, but the thought that Palpatine might have had +most of +all of it planed makes him scary as the 9 hells!
Valin Kenobi


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2009 1:25 PM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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*we must make room for the possibility that Palp wasn't always in control of what was going to happen. http://...

Just because he had a contingency plan in case that failed, one that brought him even closer to his goals, we don't therefore have to assume he planned for just that.*

Exactly. I'm really wary of the ongoing trend of making Sids more and more omniscient, to the point that everything that transpires was foreseen and somehow played into his hands all along.

He is not omnipotent, and I don't think it cheapens his character at all to say that Maul's death was an unexpected setback. I always figured that while Sid may have been feeling out Dooku as an ally before TPM, the only reason he was brought on board as a Sith apprentice was as a stopgap until Anakin was older.

Granted, Shadow Hunter is largely from Maul's point of view (although some scenes are from Sidious') and by bringing in what we now know, technically you can retcon Shadow Hunter and the other 1999-2002 material into just about anything. But in doing so, you blatantly read against the intent of the text as written, and that should be avoided when possible.

See also:

http://tvtrop es.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette
Qui-Gon Jay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2009 8:27 AM   in response to: Gato Branco in response to: Gato Branco
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According to Wookieepedia Palpatine was feeling Dooku out before the events of Episode I. Yes, he didn't leave the Order and being working with Sidious until after Qui-Gon's death, but I think Palpy foresaw that he would. Therefore Maul became expendable at some point or other.
Gato Branco


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Registered: 04/20/07
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2009 8:00 AM   in response to: Qui-Gon Jay in response to: Qui-Gon Jay
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I was under the impression that Dooku left the Jedi because of Qui-Gon's death; like that was the last straw for him, the final motivation he needed.

Then he was approached by Sidious.
Syfo-Dias had confided in Dooku about his visions about a terrible war to come and placed the order for the army. Sidious told Dooku to take over the project and kill his friend, and thus completing his transformation into Tyranus.

Or am I off?
Qui-Gon Jay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2009 7:32 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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But Palpatine was already working with Dooku by this point, using him to use Syfo-Dias to create the GAR.

The way I see it the situation surrounding Naboo and Amidala was all about one thing for Palpy: becoming Chancellor. Sure, the ideal scenario would've probably seen Maul survive but I think stating that he was upset over Maul's death is an a bit overstated. We already know about his speciesism so I think Maul was merely a savage, Jedi-hating War Machine used by the future Emperor as a means to an end. Same for Dooku, and Palps clearly shed no tears during his death.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2009 2:51 AM   in response to: DarthMRN in response to: DarthMRN
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Per Shadow Hunter, Maul thought Sids plan was to use Naboo as part of his power consolidation in preparation for a larger plot down the line. Just because he had a contingency plan in case that failed, one that brought him even closer to his goals, we don't therefore have to assume he planned for just that.

As for Maul's death, Palp in the EGttF doesn't specify that he knew when Maul was going to die, so his dissapointment could well have been genuine. After all, the Chosen One would not be ready for another ten years, so having to rely on a trecherous old Jedi Master in the meantime could be considered a setback.
DarthMRN


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Aug 1, 2009 2:50 AM   in response to: darthmilo77 in response to: darthmilo77
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You are all forgetting that Sids risked revealing the existence of the Sith by sending Maul to retrieve Amidala. There is no reason he would have done that, unless his goal in fact was to take legal control of Naboo. If he wanted her to escape and apprear before the Senate, sending Maul of all people after her would be the purest folly.

Thing about having foreseen stuff is that if we are to believe Yoda's: "Always in motion, the future is", we must make room for the possibility that Palp wasn't always in control of what was going to happen. However, I do think he made several contingency plans, one for each possible scenario.
darthmilo77


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jul 31, 2009 4:12 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Speaking of which, I just got the latest Omnibus and it has the four 2002 Hasbro promotional comics in it. Are we meant to understand that these are canon?
mason_1701


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Registered: 11/12/06
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jul 31, 2009 9:05 AM   in response to: Qui-Gon Jay in response to: Qui-Gon Jay
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lol Palpatine has discovered a new Force power: Media Awareness? Not unlike Deadpool's mutation of Comic Awareness, how he's aware that he's a comic book character?

Anakin: "Chancellor! How long has it been?"
Palpatine: "Since Jedi Quest, Issue 1."

Ah, the fourth wall. How fragile it is.
Qui-Gon Jay


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jul 31, 2009 8:54 AM   in response to: mason_1701 in response to: mason_1701
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...the content of the next movies (G-canon) outweighs the novel (C-canon) and that Jedi v. Sith was based on the grand scheme as seen in the G-canon films.

That's it in a nutshell, really. Brooks was just going off what he knew at the time, and it fit. What's odd is that from the first time I saw Episode I I knew that everything that transpired was by Palpy's design. I think he saw the loss of Maul as something that was bound to happen. If he survived his encounter with the two Jedi, great, he'd continue to use him. But he was going to be eliminated eventually cos I believe he was already working with Dooku at this point.

I could also argue that perhaps Palpatine's influence was so great that his "disappointment" over the Battle of Naboo was merely another machination...to fool the reader! Oh yes, we're going META!
mason_1701


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jul 31, 2009 6:27 AM   in response to: mason_1701 in response to: mason_1701
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So, in conclusion, I don't think it's so much that Jedi v. Sith supercedes (not retcon, because a retcon implies that both are true, from a certain POV; a retcon would be that he was lying) the novel, but that the content of the next movies (G-canon) outweighs the novel (C-canon) and that Jedi v. Sith was based on the grand scheme as seen in the G-canon films.

Besides, Palpatine had no sense of regret, really. He knew that if Maul were strong enough to be his apprentice all his life and eventually become a Master, then he wouldn't have been killed by Obi-Wan. If he died, it was because he was weak, not because of a fluke. Same goes with Dooku.
mason_1701


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Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jul 31, 2009 6:25 AM   in response to: Lucien_Sion in response to: Lucien_Sion
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I assumed that everything went according to Palpatine's plan. That he intentionally lost at Naboo, which forced the Trade Federation into the hands of the Separatists, thus ensuring that the Clone Wars would be long and bloody. I also assumed that Maul had to be sacrificed, not only to allow for Anakin, but also for Dooku, so that Palpatine/Sidious would be in direct control of the CIS. If Maul were still alive, Dooku would not become Palp's apprentice, and so Palp would have little to no control over the Separatist movement.

I assume that the "disappointment" at the failure on Naboo in the novel was because the author had little-to-no knowledge of what was coming up next. If the greater plan isn't visible, then the authors only perceive a single failure, not an intentional failure leading up to a grand success.
Lucien_Sion

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Registered: 03/30/09
Re: Holocron continuity database questions
Posted: Jul 30, 2009 5:44 PM   in response to: Leland Y Chee in response to: Leland Y Chee
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In the Phantom Menace novel, Palpatine was displeased with the outcome of the Battle of Naboo, angry over Darth Maul's death, and Anakin had only come to his notice before then. In the Essential Guide to the Force, however, Palpatine has seen Anakin days prior, foreseen he would become his apprentice, and therefore sacrificed Maul. Maul was said to be a tool to rattle the Jedi's long-complacent attitude.

Which is the canon version? Does the Essential Guide to the Force retcon the Phantom Menace novelization?

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