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Thread: Mace vs. Palpatine


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Master Mike...


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine
Posted: Jun 27, 2007 6:38 AM   in response to: AnakinDarthVader4 in response to: AnakinDarthVader4
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angstor

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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 5:53 AM   in response to: Hall45 in response to: Hall45
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So you think that divine intervention would always prevent Mace Windu from summarily executing Sidious?

Hmm.. this is on one very narrow view of the meaning of 'prophecy'

That the Force wouldn't allow anyone, with the exception of Anakin, to deliver the death blow on Sidious even if they are overly qualified to do it?

It's not that the Force won't allow.......try seeing the prophecy in another way. It is not so much the Force pre-ordaining, but rather a Force sensitive individual having foreseen events. He ha sforeseen that the "son of suns" will bring balance to the Force, what the Jedi, or we, don't know is how that will come about. We have little information about what the prophecy says, but it is clearly vague ("misread, the prohecy might have been").
Vader'smyfather


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 5:34 AM   in response to: Hall45 in response to: Hall45
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I think we could be crossing wires here.....are you viewing "inherent ability" as meaning 'Midichlorians,' because as I understand your posts the term ability was to imply 'powers' the boy may use?

Earlier you tailored you posts thus "And isn't precisely the fact he can do things that others can't that allow us to acknowledge him as the Chosen One?" Identifying that it is powers he has and exhibits that acknowledge him as the Chosen One. That is what I disagreed with because they don't acknowledge him in TPM by power at all, which is how we got to this point.

Wheras now, we seem to have changed tack and argue that rather than powers it is Midichlorians in part that acknowledged him; which isn't th same thing as saying he can do things others can't.
Hall45

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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 5:22 AM   in response to: AnakinDarthVader4 in response to: AnakinDarthVader4
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Yet, Qui Gon identifies him,

Only after he checked Anakin's bloodstream for midichlorians.

and he expects the Council to identify him, on the basis of what they sense not power he exhibits

That's not the case for the simple reason that the Council is skeptical about Anakin being the One.

Mace Windu: You believe it's this boy?

They don't realize he's the Chosen One just by looking at him.

They needed to hear his story, including his midichlorian count (what a coincidente that Qui Gon brings it up to justify his belief in Anakin) and even then they were doubtful.
Vader'smyfather


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 2:22 AM   in response to: Hall45 in response to: Hall45
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Even nowadays some people are reluctant to believe in Jesus in spite his supposedly awesome deeds (the miracles).

Is it that, or is it that they find it hard to place their faith in a book telling us of his suppsed deeds?
Vader'smyfather


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 2:20 AM   in response to: Zak Zahar in response to: Zak Zahar
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He obviously felt that they needed to be persuaded with a scientific argument

Of course, I would expect him to use what evidence he may have in front of the Council

But this harks back to your original point that "He can't just be the Chosen One without exhibiting some sort of inherent ability that confirms him as the One." Yet, Qui Gon identifies him, and he expects the Council to identify him, on the basis of what they sense not power he exhibits.

Any scientific evidence of midi's is used to support what they sense.
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Darth Hall79

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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 3:26 PM   in response to: Zak Zahar in response to: Zak Zahar
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Christ's mission on earth was only a portion of God's will. He came to redeem man AND prepare man for the end of this present system of things. So like Anakin he showed his awesome abilities and is destined to undo what Satan caused in the Garden of Eden. So Satan is much like Sidious. Both will be destroyed and balance will return. In Christ's case it will be superior power that stops Satan. That was also supposed to be Anakin's destiny.
Zak Zahar


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 2:02 PM   in response to: Hall45 in response to: Hall45
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But if Christ hadn't walked on water or raised the dead he wouldn't have been recognised as the son of God, now would he?

Agreed, Hall45. I however do think that walking on water and raising the dead were means for Christ to get attention from the people surrounding Him, and especially the Apostles. These weren't the reason why He was on earth. These were the means by which He could get the attention making His purpose on Earth known to the masses ages after He died, redeeming the sins of Humankind.

PS: I'm still unclear whether that kind of real-life discussion of religions (and further, politics) is appropriate on these forums or not. If a mod could just confirm whether this is okay or not, I would be very grateful. I'm going to discuss these aspects unless someone objects. Thank you!
Hall45

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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 1:35 PM   in response to: AnakinDarthVader4 in response to: AnakinDarthVader4
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Christ's mission was to redeem humanity and deliver a message of Hope, a New Covenant. It wasn't "walking on water" or "bringing back Lazarus from the dead"!

Sure.

But if Christ hadn't walked on water or raised the dead he wouldn't have been recognised as the son of God, now would he?

And if the people hadn't believed in his divine nature, they wouldn't have become his followers, would they?

Which means that Christ's goal to redeem humanity wouldn't have been accomplished.

Even nowadays some people are reluctant to believe in Jesus in spite his supposedly awesome deeds (the miracles).
Zak Zahar


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 11:25 AM   in response to: Zak Zahar in response to: Zak Zahar
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Christ's mission was to redeem humanity and deliver a message of Hope, a New Covenant. It wasn't "walking on water" or "bringing back Lazarus from the dead"!

Now apply this to Anakin: Anakin's role was not to beat everyone and be the best ever. It was "to bring balance to the Force". His potential brought him one thing: the attention of the people surrounding him, which triggered the frustrations and ambitions which would play a major role in Anakin's treason and ultimate redemption, thus bringing balance to the Force.
Zak Zahar


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 11:13 AM   in response to: Hall45 in response to: Hall45
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*He can't just be the Chosen One without exhibiting some sort of inherent ability that confirms him as the One. *

Yes, but the point of Christ's coming wasn't to perform magic tricks. The magic tricks gave him the attention of the people. Christ's mission was to redeem humanity and deliver a message of Hope, a New Covenant. It wasn't "walking on water" or "bringing back Lazarus from the dead"!

I beg to differ. Anakin's future was clouded, so all they could go on was his power and abilities.

Clouded +for whom+? For Yoda and the Council. Doesn't mean that the prophecy itself was wrong now, does it?

Just for the record, I won't repeat all Vader'smyfather has said. I think we are pretty much on the same page he and I. I understand the movies the same way he does in many respects, I would venture.
Hall45

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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 10:59 AM   in response to: AnakinDarthVader4 in response to: AnakinDarthVader4
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He expects the Council to see that too, he expects them to sense he's the Chosen One.

Yes, he does.

That is why he brings up the argument that Anakin has a record number of midichlorians.

He obviously felt that they needed to be persuaded with a scientific argument.

They weren't going to sense his importance based on nothing.
force_drifter

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Registered: 03/28/07
Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 10:19 AM   in response to: AnakinDarthVader4 in response to: AnakinDarthVader4
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666 pages...
Darth Hall79

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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 10:13 AM   in response to: Darth Hall79 in response to: Darth Hall79
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And what made Sidious more powerful than everyone else, was his ability to see the future. The jedi no longer could. So, Sidious knew he had Anakin's allegiance deep down, he merely had to cause Anakin to unleash it. Vadersmyfather, you said that line "You see I told you, the jedi are taking over" line indicated feigning weakness. Yes indeed. He said that before he shot his lightning at Mace. As soon as Anakin walked in, he had the chess piece and Mace was in check mate. And sidious feigned weakness in ROTJ by telling Luke he was unarmed.
Darth Hall79

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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 10:07 AM   in response to: Vader'smyfather in response to: Vader'smyfather
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I beg to differ. Anakin's future was clouded, so all they could go on was his power and abilities. Qui-Gon was the only one who saw beyond that. And again, the force would not create an all-powerful force user only to have someone else nearly kill the sith. Makes no sense to the story. And Zak... Christ was foretold to destroy Satan from the very beginning. That is what Armageddon is all about, God's war to eradicate wickedness from the earth.
Vader'smyfather


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 9:32 AM   in response to: Vader'smyfather in response to: Vader'smyfather
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That's precisely what leads Qui Gon to believe that Anakin is the Chosen One.

I was responding to your point "isn't precisely the fact he can do things that others can't that allow us to acknowledge him as the Chosen One?"

However, as you have said what leads QG to test him is that he senses something unusual, not the fact the boy does unusual things for a force sensitive child.

Yes, Anakin can use the Force, but that in itself is expected of a FS child. It is more than that QG sense.That sense is then backed up by scientific evidence of his midi-count.

He expects the Council to see that too, he expects them to sense he's the Chosen One. There is no real element of proving power to mark him out as special, save some tests that we are lead to believe all children are tested with.

So my point, was what marks him out as the Chosen One was never his power, it was that they could sense his importance.
Hall45

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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 9:23 AM   in response to: AnakinDarthVader4 in response to: AnakinDarthVader4
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They do, but that isn't the point of the Chosen One. That certainly isn't why QG identifies him.

I beg to differ.

That's precisely what leads Qui Gon to believe that Anakin is the Chosen One.

Once the Jedi notices there's something unusual about Anakin, he immediately asks a midichorian count (one that is off the chart).

Why would Qui Gon ask such a thing if the number of midichlorians in Anakin's bloodstream (which equals power, as we know) was quite irrelevant to confirm him as the One?

Why does he tell the Coucil that Anakin has the highest midichlorian count he's ever seen in a life form when they express their doubts?
Vader'smyfather


Posts: 13,247
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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 9:15 AM   in response to: Hall45 in response to: Hall45
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Would people still believe in Him if He didn't display such a power?

Possibly not, but then what others believe is inconsequential to it. Some doubt him despite the power he appears capable of.

To be the Chosen One, we know, isn't about being the most powerful. It solely means being the One that will destroy the Sith and Balance the Force. The One chosen by the Force to do that. And as we learn, that ultimately is unrelated to whatever power Anakin may or may not posess - that is in part the lesson he learns too.
Vader'smyfather


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Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 9:14 AM   in response to: Hall45 in response to: Hall45
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But doesn't that imply he's special in ways the others Jedi are not?

Yes, if someone is the Chosen One then they are one of a kind.

And isn't precisely the fact he can do things that others can't that allow us to acknowledge him as the Chosen One?

They do, but that isn't the point, or role of the Chosen One. That certainly isn't why QG identifies him either, nor is it the criteria in which he expects the Council to see that Anakin's the Chosen One. He expects them to sense it, as he has.

He can't just be the Chosen One without exhibiting some sort of inherent ability that confirms him as the One

Again, I agree, but you appear to be implying I suggested otherwise, when I haven't.
Hall45

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Registered: 02/27/06
Re: Mace vs. Palpatine [TDE]
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 9:06 AM   in response to: AnakinDarthVader4 in response to: AnakinDarthVader4
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Just being the Chosen One - being a creation of the Force?

But doesn't that imply he's special in ways the others Jedi are not?

And isn't precisely the fact he can do things that others can't that allow us to acknowledge him as the Chosen One?

He can't just be the Chosen One without exhibiting some sort of inherent ability that confirms him as the One.

It's like being Jesus Christ without performing miracles.

Would people still believe in Him if He didn't display such a power?

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