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Jan 25, 2011 11:29 AM
Last Post By: TorrentCommander
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 25, 2011 11:29 AM
in response to: obikenobi12
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Here are my thoughts on Mother Talzin showing Maul at the end of the episode "Witches of the Mist":
In the next episode "Overlords" the preview shows Qui-Gon talking to Obiwan. I noticed that Qui-Gon isn't a blue glowy. He actually has form, since you can't see through him. This planet must have a strong enough connection to the force so as to allow powerful force users to contact others through the force and appear as they did in real life. Now I'm not certain this planet is only for light side Jedi only. That would be ignorant to assume. I think that Mother Talzin knows of this planets connection to the force and tells Savage to go to this Mortis. Only on Mortis would Savage be able to learn how to become stronger, since his dead brother (who is technically alive in the force) would be able to teach him all he needs to know. In the preview for "Overlords" Qui-Gon says that "I am here because you are here", so Mother Talzin knows that if Savage goes to Mortis and seeks his brother, his brother will appear. This is of course speculation, and who knows what will happen, but this is the only sensible explanation I have for the events that happened at the end of "Witches of the Mist". This possible explanation would make for some good story telling, since you also need to remember that Maul came from Dathomir and he probably also had training/manipulation from Talzin and she probably has something to do with his being alive in the force. I think if Savage goes to Mortis, he will maybe meet up with Anakin and Obiwan again, and this time he will be stronger than ever. This explanation of events is of course, my opinion, but I can see that this is a explanation that would tie two different story arc's in SWTCW's together.
I like your speculations!! Impressive...most impressive! |
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 24, 2011 3:07 PM
in response to: dengar49
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In response to Grevious' statement in ROTS from the "not so hot" thread....
Up to this point in TCW, perhaps Grevious has not been trained by Dooku yet. Maybe he's just running around with the lightsabers he's collected and fighting Obi-wan and others without training.
In a future episode we could see him train with Dooku ala the microseries, or like we just saw with Savage in the last episode.
maybe this has already been discussed, if so, my apologies.
That could possibly work, with some amount of timeline shifting. I can't remember exactly, but I think there's a "Clone Wars Adventures" comic where Grievous, Durge and Ventress are all training together, but it could be he still wasn't fully trained by TCW. It doesn't require as much deliberately forcing meaning as assuming he was just bragging to someone who already well and fully knew, anyway. |
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 24, 2011 11:13 AM
in response to: Leland Y Chee
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In response to Grevious' statement in ROTS from the "not so hot" thread....
Up to this point in TCW, perhaps Grevious has not been trained by Dooku yet. Maybe he's just running around with the lightsabers he's collected and fighting Obi-wan and others without training.
In a future episode we could see him train with Dooku ala the microseries, or like we just saw with Savage in the last episode.
maybe this has already been discussed, if so, my apologies.
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914
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 24, 2011 11:10 AM
in response to: Leland Y Chee
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I don't have huge issues with possile continuity problems, but I wish the writers had chosen to show some of the previously established things from the EU that I enjoyed. For example, I like the EU Mandalore much better than the TCW Mandalore. (With a few mental contortions, I managed to make them fit together, at least in my head, but I get the feeling that neither the writers from the EU or the writers from TCW would like my final result, since it required some changes to the TCW characters  )
And I think Ventress's new backstory is unnecessarily complicated and could have used a few more rewrites. However, I don't have a problem with Qui-Gon's upcoming appearance (thank you for changing my mind on that, DuroDude  ), since it can probably be fit into the continuity with less trouble than other retcons. As long as the writers stay away from Mandalore (not that I dislike the change that much, but the Mandalore stories from this season were some of the worst in the entire show IMO), I can continue to enjoy TCW. |
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 24, 2011 10:11 AM
in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Here are my thoughts on Mother Talzin showing Maul at the end of the episode "Witches of the Mist":
In the next episode "Overlords" the preview shows Qui-Gon talking to Obiwan. I noticed that Qui-Gon isn't a blue glowy. He actually has form, since you can't see through him. This planet must have a strong enough connection to the force so as to allow powerful force users to contact others through the force and appear as they did in real life. Now I'm not certain this planet is only for light side Jedi only. That would be ignorant to assume. I think that Mother Talzin knows of this planets connection to the force and tells Savage to go to this Mortis. Only on Mortis would Savage be able to learn how to become stronger, since his dead brother (who is technically alive in the force) would be able to teach him all he needs to know. In the preview for "Overlords" Qui-Gon says that "I am here because you are here", so Mother Talzin knows that if Savage goes to Mortis and seeks his brother, his brother will appear. This is of course speculation, and who knows what will happen, but this is the only sensible explanation I have for the events that happened at the end of "Witches of the Mist". This possible explanation would make for some good story telling, since you also need to remember that Maul came from Dathomir and he probably also had training/manipulation from Talzin and she probably has something to do with his being alive in the force. I think if Savage goes to Mortis, he will maybe meet up with Anakin and Obiwan again, and this time he will be stronger than ever. This explanation of events is of course, my opinion, but I can see that this is a explanation that would tie two different story arc's in SWTCW's together.
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 24, 2011 1:45 AM
in response to: TorrentCommander
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Apologies, I wanted to add this to my previous post, but was interrupted, hence the second post.
If you look at an episode like "Rising Malevolence" for example - Plo Koon walking and surviving in space! Many fans could see this as an imperfection, but if you look at the episode commentary, it becomes obvious that there was a great deal of debate before it was decided that Master Plo would be taking a walk outside the excape pod with his troops. Now the point I am trying to make with this example is: the folks at Lucas Animation, especially George Lucas himself, go through a great deal of time and effort to get things to fit and to be correct, wether this is in continuity or technology or some other aspect of the Star Wars universe. So again, give them some credit, and cut them some slack - afterall, sometimes even earth-bound history writers don't agree on all the facts.
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 24, 2011 1:10 AM
in response to: DuroDude
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I respect that you went to such great lengths to defend your position, darthmilo, though I still don't see eye to eye with you on a few things.
Look, would I like a PERFECT Star Wars history that cohesively fits together like a jigsaw puzzle? Yes. Is that EVER going to happen? No. The reason? As much as I love and enjoy Star Wars, it is fictional. It is not going to mesh flawlessly as though it is right of a World History textbook. Because of the realities of an evolving franchise like Star Wars, there are going to be times when reconciling the differences between older and newer material is very difficult, even near impossible. I agree that some retconned explanations are not always the most satisfying, but you just kind of have to accept them and move on. Star Wars, for all its strengths, certainly has its few flaws as well. Expecting a flawlessly cohesive Star Wars is a tempting yet ultimately unrealistic expectation. You are going to be let down again and again and AGAIN. As a Star Wars fan, you want to get the most enjoyment possible out of it, right? To do that you have to accept Star Wars as it is (imperfections included), but FOCUS on the positive. Qui-Gon Jinn (who I know is SUCH a controversial character lately) really said it best: "Your focus determines your reality." Focus on the bad, and you will get the bad. But focus on the good, and you will get the good. That goes not only for Star Wars but life as well.
And once again, I am sorry if this agitates you, but I STILL do not know of any time the Clone Wars has contradicted the movies in a way that can definitively be proven. George Lucas knows his universe better than even the most hardcore of fans, and he is actively involved in the Clone Wars show. He is not going to put something in the show that contradicts something in the movies. Give the man SOME credit. A little faith can go a long way.
Edited by: DuroDude on Jan 23, 2011 7:06 PM
Edited by: DuroDude on Jan 23, 2011 7:07 PM
I have greatly enjoyed reading this debate! And I completely understand both sides of it too. But truthfully, I have to side with DuroDude in this. We are all Star Wars fans on this group, and yes, if you really go out hunting, you will find some small imperfections, but you can also explain them without too much trouble, infact without any trouble. And I agree, George Lucas knows his universe much better than any of us, much better even than those working for him, so lets cut him some slack. |
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 8:12 PM
in response to: DuroDude
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Expecting basic narrative cohererency, one step up from things only technically making sense, is quite different from expecting flawlessness.
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 7:26 PM
in response to: Leland Y Chee
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Well we could solve all this by having George remake the originals. I mean with all the time and effort he has put into altering the originals,he might as well just remake them. It might be cheaper for him...I know blasphemy lol. I happen to like the CW. I'm not that trilled about the continuity problems,but I look at as an old myth told to us in different ways.The story may change a little but the meaning is still there. So relax and enjoy these little adventures. George has done far worse in the SW universe then the CW....Ewoks come to mind lol.
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 7:06 PM
in response to: darthmilo77
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I respect that you went to such great lengths to defend your position, darthmilo, though I still don't see eye to eye with you on a few things.
Look, would I like a PERFECT Star Wars history that cohesively fits together like a jigsaw puzzle? Yes. Is that EVER going to happen? No. The reason? As much as I love and enjoy Star Wars, it is fictional. It is not going to mesh flawlessly as though it is right of a World History textbook. Because of the realities of an evolving franchise like Star Wars, there are going to be times when reconciling the differences between older and newer material is very difficult, even near impossible. I agree that some retconned explanations are not always the most satisfying, but you just kind of have to accept them and move on. Star Wars, for all its strengths, certainly has its few flaws as well. Expecting a flawlessly cohesive Star Wars is a tempting yet ultimately unrealistic expectation. You are going to be let down again and again and AGAIN. As a Star Wars fan, you want to get the most enjoyment possible out of it, right? To do that you have to accept Star Wars as it is (imperfections included), but FOCUS on the positive. Qui-Gon Jinn (who I know is SUCH a controversial character lately) really said it best: "Your focus determines your reality." Focus on the bad, and you will get the bad. But focus on the good, and you will get the good. That goes not only for Star Wars but life as well.
And once again, I am sorry if this agitates you, but I STILL do not know of any time the Clone Wars has contradicted the movies in a way that can definitively be proven. George Lucas knows his universe better than even the most hardcore of fans, and he is actively involved in the Clone Wars show. He is not going to put something in the show that contradicts something in the movies. Give the man SOME credit. A little faith can go a long way.
Edited by: DuroDude on Jan 23, 2011 7:06 PM
Edited by: DuroDude on Jan 23, 2011 7:07 PM |
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 6:06 PM
in response to: DuroDude
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So you think that Qui-Gon couldn't just be there, with no strings attached, because that would be a "solid, verifiable contradiction" any more than anything we've already seen? I guess I'd beg to differ.
I mean, this is George Lucas we're talking about here, who seems to think a thousand generations and a thousand years are the same thing, or that it makes sense for Obi-Wan to either not remember R2 or pretend not to remember for no particular reason, or for Leia to remember her mother who she was near for a grand total of one minute while being born. Have these things been retconned or explained? Of course. The point is that none of these retcons or explanations have been particularly convincing, especially to the viewer who doesn't follow retcons or have a friend who can explain the Ruusan Reformation to them. If they were at all "diligent," these viewers wouldn't need such a friend or other outside material. You wouldn't need to deliberately try to find a somewhat plausible-sounding reason why characters would talk to each other as if they'd never fought, or why people would talk about a 55-year-old as if he should have just up and died by now, or why Obi-Wan would refer to Yoda as the Jedi Master who trained him simply because he trained all Jedi in groups.
Even if a knowledgeable friend or encyclopedia tells the confused viewer who just watched all four of the movies that take place before TESB chronologically that that's the reason he says that, the moment of comprehension is something along the lines of "oh, ok, it's not a gaping factual mistake" and not "ah, I see, that strengthens the story." Having basic consistency is good. It sure beats the alternative of nothing having any impact on anything else. It just shouldn't be compared favorably to works that take the time to not only make sure the facts don't conflict with each other, but also that they add to each other. You know, if you're going to have a story about Count Dooku as a youth, for example, don't have him die at the end and then retcon it by saying "oh but then he got better by the time of the movies". That's a story that's just kind of there for its own sake, and, in my opinion, what most of the show has been. If that's what's going to happen, why have it be Count Dooku at all? If the planet is going to be a radioactive desert with glass cities, why make it Mandalore? If it's going to be a source of information with which Obi-Wan interacts, why make it be Qui-Gon Jinn as a Force ghost? The point is that, when you're making a prequel about something that hasn't been covered before, it's a lot better to make it add to your subject, instead of just portraying it and having it technically not break continuity.
I mean, even if you were right, fans of the show were some kind of persecuted minority, and everyone else was actively looking for inconsistencies, they wouldn't find them if they weren't there.
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 5:51 PM
in response to: DuroDude
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My problem was I wasn't enjoying the 3rd season at all until the Nightsisters trilogy.
Out of the first 11 episodes only 4 at the most provided me with any entertainment at all and to be honest 4 is being generous, I think those 4 episodes come off looking better surrounded by such boring episodes.
I wouldn't consider any of those 4 to be great or even very good.
Not finding any entertainment in 7 of the first 11 episodes is cause to complain, I was ready to abandon the show entirely before the Nightsisters trilogy.
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 2:04 PM
in response to: DuroDude
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You're really hung up on that whole four-armed Grievous thing, huh? I see no evidence that the show has contradicted the movies in that area. I mean, with all due respect, what is wrong with Grievous fighting with four arms? So Obi-Wan acted slightly surprised in the movie. Maybe Grievous simply caught him off-guard in THAT specific battle. It's not that Obi-Wan was surprised that Grievous had four arms. He was just surprised in the moment that Grievous was switching from two to four arms. The Clone Wars obviously makes it apparent that Obi-Wan was well aware of Grievous's four arms. That's why Obi-Wan was able to fight so effectively against Grievous in Episode III. He knew his opponent's fighting style quite well by then.
As for the "I was trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku" comment, that was simply Grievous boasting to Obi-Wan that he was trained by one of the best lightsaber duelists (Dooku) the Jedi Order ever produced. He was just mocking Obi-Wan by implying that due to who trained him, his skills with a lightsaber were superior. Grievous was just trying to give himself a psychological edge, and any person who has ever been in battle knows how invaluable such an edge can be. By no means was Grievous divulging some great secret that he can use lightsabers. The Jedi have been fighting him for over two years. They're painstakingly aware of what Grievous can do with a lightsaber.
So, yes, I am watching the same show as you, and I still have not noticed any solid, verifiable contradictions to the movies. Maybe the difference is that I'm not LOOKING for such inconsistencies. Remember what Yoda said about the Cave? "Only what you take with you?" If we as fans watch the Clone Wars actively LOOKING for problems, we will probably find exactly what we're looking for.
Edited by: DuroDude on Jan 23, 2011 12:32 PM
Edited by: DuroDude on Jan 23, 2011 12:34 PM
Well Said.
People seem to enjoy complaining about the Clone Wars.
"Around the survivors, a perimeter create!"
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" |
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 12:31 PM
in response to: darthmilo77
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You're really hung up on that whole four-armed Grievous thing, huh? I see no evidence that the show has contradicted the movies in that area. I mean, with all due respect, what is wrong with Grievous fighting with four arms? So Obi-Wan acted slightly surprised in the movie. Maybe Grievous simply caught him off-guard in THAT specific battle. It's not that Obi-Wan was surprised that Grievous had four arms. He was just surprised in the moment that Grievous was switching from two to four arms. The Clone Wars obviously makes it apparent that Obi-Wan was well aware of Grievous's four arms. That's why Obi-Wan was able to fight so effectively against Grievous in Episode III. He knew his opponent's fighting style quite well by then.
As for the "I was trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku" comment, that was simply Grievous boasting to Obi-Wan that he was trained by one of the best lightsaber duelists (Dooku) the Jedi Order ever produced. He was just mocking Obi-Wan by implying that due to who trained him, his skills with a lightsaber were superior. Grievous was just trying to give himself a psychological edge, and any person who has ever been in battle knows how invaluable such an edge can be. By no means was Grievous divulging some great secret that he can use lightsabers. The Jedi have been fighting him for over two years. They're painstakingly aware of what Grievous can do with a lightsaber.
So, yes, I am watching the same show as you, and I still have not noticed any solid, verifiable contradictions to the movies. Maybe the difference is that I'm not LOOKING for such inconsistencies. Remember what Yoda said about the Cave? "Only what you take with you?" If we as fans watch the Clone Wars actively LOOKING for problems, we will probably find exactly what we're looking for.
Edited by: DuroDude on Jan 23, 2011 12:32 PM
Edited by: DuroDude on Jan 23, 2011 12:34 PM |
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 11:46 AM
in response to: Master Optician
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I'm going to be patient and see what happens in the show, but certainly not because of anything Dave Filoni has to say about it.
I am going to honor what he asked us to do and be patient. George and Dave have both bent over backwards to make sure the Clone Wars does not contradict the movies. They go so far as to make it so that Anakin and Grievous can never meet face-to-face prior to Episode III, all because of that throwaway "You're shorter than I expected" line. They're very meticulous. They are not going to make such a blatant continuity error.
We are talking about the same show, right? The show where Obi-Wan fights Grievous frequently, sometimes with all four arms, and then is surprised to hear Grievous say he's been trained in the Jedi arts and has four arms in the movie? Even aside from the EU issues, I would not call the show's approach to continuity "meticulous." |
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 10:46 AM
in response to: DuroDude
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I'm just going to enjoy the Clone Wars while it lasts
"Around the survivors, a perimeter create!"
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 9:11 AM
in response to: Master Optician
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God bless Dave Filoni for taking the time to post quite an in-depth response to the fans' overreaction to this matter.
I am going to honor what he asked us to do and be patient. George and Dave have both bent over backwards to make sure the Clone Wars does not contradict the movies. They go so far as to make it so that Anakin and Grievous can never meet face-to-face prior to Episode III, all because of that throwaway "You're shorter than I expected" line. They're very meticulous. They are not going to make such a blatant continuity error.
I know there have been times when Clone Wars has contradicted to some degree EU material. That is to be expected sometimes. Clone Wars is T-Canon, which puts it above the primarily C-Canon EU. Therefore, Clone Wars reserves the right to alter something in the EU if it makes the show better. The Clone Wars cannot, however, contradict the movies, which are a tier above them in the continuity hierarchy. George Lucas (working on the Clone Wars with Dave) is not going to contradict the G-level movies. There really is nothing to fear. Qui-Gon's inclusion in the Clone Wars will make perfect sense when all is said and done.
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 8:41 AM
in response to: Master Optician
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Regarding the appearance of Qui-Gon in TCW, Dave Filoni spoke about this via Facebook a few days ago.
"I understand that Qui-Gon’s appearance in The Clone Wars has many implications, and that some of you are asking “how can this be ” especially in light of the scene between Obi Wan and Yoda at the end of Revenge of the Sith where they speak about Qui-Gon. These upcoming episodes, more than any other to date, will spark curiosity and discussion. I only ask that you be patient and watch them. I look forward to hearing from you after they air. For now trust me when I say Christian Taylor (writer) and I, along with George Lucas, are very aware of the continuity surrounding Qui-Gon Jinn. George in particular, is especially conscious of it."
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Re: The Clone Wars continuity
Posted:
Jan 23, 2011 8:27 AM
in response to: YodaBauer2442
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