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Thread: Bad Things in the EU



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Nedara

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 27, 2008 9:15 AM   in response to: Dark_Lord_Halal in response to: Dark_Lord_Halal
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I agree with Dark Lord Halal about this. I thought he was aggressive in Ep. I, and I haven?t read anything about him yet.
Dark_Lord_Halal

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Registered: 05/22/08
Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 27, 2008 8:57 AM   in response to: angstor in response to: angstor
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*I would suggest that any 'darkness' or inner violence attributed to Mace Windu is projected onto him by the viewer, partly because it is Samuel L Jackson, and partly because an EU writer has determined it so.

This is the only thing you guys have said that i'd heavily disagree with. Cause I saw the movies before really getting into maces backstory (the movie introduced mace, so this is obvious :) ) and most of my friends arent into the EU, and we all agree he has an aggressive tone. As I said, his tone of voice, his intensity in battle, he DOES APPEAR aggressive, I guess its just what you consider aggressive that makes the decision. Aggression to you guys is hostility, and I've already posted my definitions.
angstor

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 27, 2008 7:56 AM   in response to: angstor in response to: angstor
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To say that Mace Windu would arrest anyone in the fashion that he arrests Palpatine is supposition that allows one to disregard the context of that scene. I still cannot think of a way that Obi-Wan might have approached the task that would, in actuality, be any different. Given that it is an arrest of the Sith Lord, as they now know, and all that that knowledge implies, there will always be the "implied threat" that goes inevitably with that particular arrest....

I would suggest that any 'darkness' or inner violence attributed to Mace Windu is projected onto him by the viewer, partly because it is Samuel L Jackson, and partly because an EU writer has determined it so.
angstor

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 27, 2008 7:56 AM   in response to: angstor in response to: angstor
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The discussion in the gunship, also, does not back up this idea that he is upset with Anakin. "I don't trust him.... I don't think the boy can handle him.." - he shows here a level of understanding of Anakin's naivity and weakness, not anger or chagrin at his behaviour. And when Anakin comes to him with the "terrible truth", he explains to him why he should not go with them. "I sense much confusion in you Skywalker..... for your own good, stay out of this.". This isn't darkness, or inner violence, this is insight - as we see, he is correct in his reading of the situation.

When Anakin enters the Chancellor's office, Mace has it about him to tell Anakin "Don't listen to him Anakin...", he explains exactly why he is going to cut the Chancellor down.
angstor

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 27, 2008 7:54 AM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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There was nothing wrong with the statement "Take a seat".

It's not the statement itself, it's the way he said it, his voice, his face, the passion he put in the statement.

But, that seems to be ignoring what he is saying. "Take a seat, young Skywalker.", he doesn't, to me, look any more upset than any of the other Masters - I wouldn't even say upset was the right word for any of them. Taken aback, almost embarassed for him - it was, after all, incredibly un-Jedi, absolutely cementing the voracity of their decision not to grant him the title of Master. The discussion then moves on, and the incident forgotten - including Mace.
Nedara

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 2:02 PM   in response to: Master Optician in response to: Master Optician
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He obviously left the planet without killing all of the clones.

But no one, either, could blame the Wookies for help Yoda. The bodies could demonstrate Yoda killed them.

Of course I think he would... and obviously he did.

Then, it makes no sense to kill two guards when hundreds of clone troopers could be there before the knocked guards would wake up.

There was nothing wrong with the statement "Take a seat".

It's not the statement itself, it's the way he said it, his voice, his face, the passion he put in the statement.
Mmm. Maybe I understand it this way because I'm Latin.
No. his reaction was very different from the other Masters'.
Master Optician


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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 1:27 PM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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I didn't say the other Masters weren't upset. I said "as upset as Anakin". I see a difference here.

He wasn't as upset as Anakin. What would you rather Mace have said?

'Oh... please understand dear, sweet Anakin... mighty Chosen One...'

There was nothing wrong with the statement "Take a seat".
Master Optician


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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 1:24 PM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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*The situation in Kashyyyk and the situation in Coruscant were very different, IMO. If wouldn't have killed the clones in Kashyyyk, the wookies would have suffered the consequences. They would have been punished for helping Yoda. The Jedi was trying to protect his friends. *

Order 66 was directed towards the Jedi, not the Wookies. Yoda killed Gree to
spare his own life, not that of the Wookies. He obviously left the planet without
killing all of the clones.

But in Coruscant he had to protect no one.

Yeah, he was trying to protected himself.

Remember they were in the Senate Building and Yoda let Mas Amedda go away.

Yoda was knocked out cold when Mas Amedda left.

*Do you think Mas Amedda wasn't going to alert more guards and clone troopers? *

Of course I think he would... and obviously he did.
Nedara

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 11:49 AM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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The looks on all of the Jedi Masters, including Obi-Wan's shaking head, showed that they were all upset, perhaps insulted.

I didn't say the other Masters weren't upset. I said "as upset as Anakin". I see a difference here.
Nedara

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 11:46 AM   in response to: Master Optician in response to: Master Optician
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The situation in Kashyyyk and the situation in Coruscant were very different, IMO. If wouldn't have killed the clones in Kashyyyk, the wookies would have suffered the consequences. They would have been punished for helping Yoda. The Jedi was trying to protect his friends. But in Coruscant he had to protect no one.

Why risk them waking up during their duel?

I can't believe he thought the fight was going to take too much time. Remember they were in the Senate Building and Yoda let Mas Amedda go away. Do you think Mas Amedda wasn't going to alert more guards and clone troopers?
Master Optician


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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 11:27 AM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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*11 Master and only Mace said "Take a sit". Only Mace was as upset as Anakin. *

Mace was the one that spoke previously, after Yoda. He spoke because Anakin, a
young Jedi Knight, questioned the collective wisdom of the Council, calling them *"outrageous" *and "unfair". Being told to*+ "take a seat" +*was getting off quite easy.

And Mace was not the only one upset an Anakin. The looks on all of the Jedi Masters,
including Obi-Wan's shaking head, showed that they were all upset, perhaps insulted.
Master Optician


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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 11:21 AM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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*I think any Jedi would choose the first option. They would never kill if there were another way. *

Sure... killing is a last resort. But Yoda was now on the run. He did outright
kill Commander Gree and his associate on Kashyyyk, because his life was
in danger. The two guards in Palpatine's office posed the same threat to him.

Why risk them waking up during their duel?
Nedara

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 10:12 AM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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But if we take into account the dialogue, then we get a better idea...

Then I have to agree with Dark Lord Halal. When Anakin was so upset because he wasn't a Master, who did answer him, in not very soft voice? 11 Master and only Mace said "Take a sit". Only Mace was as upset as Anakin.
Nedara

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 9:19 AM   in response to: angstor in response to: angstor
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That?s exactly the whole point. If Mace would have gone to arrest any other person who weren?t a Sith Lord, he would have done and he would have looked the same. It?s his nature.
angstor

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Registered: 01/11/07
Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 9:19 AM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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And how do you pretend to demonstrate what a character is feeling in the films? All we have is what we see.

Not quite. What we also have is what we hear. All of Mace's actions are thoroughly reasoned and explained; he offers many insights. In the arrest scene, there is one moment where Mace sounds .... contemptuous. That is when he says "....My Lord" - but isn't that merely a signal from him that he knows who he is dealing with, that the title is fraudulent.

That is the difference between novels and films. In a film, we can't see what is happening inside the characters' minds.

But if we take into account the dialogue, then we get a better idea...
angstor

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 9:13 AM   in response to: angstor in response to: angstor
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Am I the only one who sees an implicit threat in the way Mace crossed the office?

An *"implicit threat"*? What does that mean, given this context? he is there to arrest the Sith Lord, who he knows is unlikely to come quietly and drop the plotting that he has worked at for over ten years. How is one supposed to arrest a Sith Lord?
angstor

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Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 9:13 AM   in response to: Nedara in response to: Nedara
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This has nothing to do with Palpatine.

It has everything to do with Palpatine. He is there to arrest Palpatine. It is Palpatine that Mace has been made aware is the Sith Lord that they have been searching for. Given this information, it is clear that Palpatine has been behind the whole war, that he has lead both sides. It is clear that Palpatine, being the Sith Lord, is not going to come quietly. That's what I mean by context.

Do you think if Obi-Wan would have gone to arrest Palpatine he would have done exactly what Mace did? Do you believe he would have crossed the door, ignited his lightsaber and said "you're under arrest"?

What would you suggest he would do differently? Given that he is there to arrest Palpatine, who, he is made aware, is the Sith Lord and all that that entails? I don't see that he could have done anything very differently. But, he wouldn't have looked like Mace Windu.
Dark_Lord_Halal

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Registered: 05/22/08
Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 8:54 AM   in response to: Dark_Lord_Halal in response to: Dark_Lord_Halal
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My point to this is that his level of aggression depends on your meaning of aggressive. I was using the absolute MINIMUM requirements for "aggressive", as in someone pushy.

*AND YES, MACE IS BAD A***
Dark_Lord_Halal

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Registered: 05/22/08
Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 8:53 AM   in response to: Master Optician in response to: Master Optician
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Mace tells Palpatine that he is under arrest, while lighting his sabre. This is a reasonable precaution in the context of this scenario - as we see with the speed and ferocity of Palpatine's attack.

This isnt necessarily aggressive, considering its proticol for cops to draw their guns when arresting possibly armed suspects. Its more common sense.

I think his aggression is really shown in the way he talks, and the way he fights (you notice the ferocity of his style even if you dont know its Vapaad and its back story).

*3. vigorously energetic, esp. in the use of initiative and forcefulness: an aggressive salesperson. * the third definition of Dictionary.com
*
4. boldly assertive and forward; pushy: an aggressive driver. * fourth

having or showing determination and energetic pursuit of your ends Dictionary.com

cont
Nedara

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Registered: 10/23/07
Re: Bad Things in the EU
Posted: May 26, 2008 8:46 AM   in response to: Master Optician in response to: Master Optician
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Not if the were unconscious. All what Yoda needed was to put them out of his way for a while. Two unconscious guards can recovery, in time. Two dead guards can?t. I think any Jedi would choose the first option. They would never kill if there were another way.

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